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Kfir mishap averted
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b2spirit
Joined: Oct 2006
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 6 Dec 2006 02:21:33 GMT Report for Abuse
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I think what the navy needs most is an airwing. At the moment the air support takes sometime to come which maybe too late in certain occasions. There was a plan for this sometime back and it included the acquisition of mi-24s. But the plan was scrapped by sandagiri.
At the moment we only have one vessel capable of landing helicopters. So we may need to acquire more vessels that can accomadate helis. But i dont think we can afford such a luxury at the moment.
At least we should do something to reduce the response time of the airforce in the case of responding to requests for CAS from the navy. I think it has to go through the naval higher command to the airforce. Which takes time. A dedicated naval air wing would overcome that issue. |
Saervek
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 6 Dec 2006 03:40:00 GMT Report for Abuse
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Su33,
Thanks for the info mate;
With Nandimithra & Suranimala (the Israeli FMVs), I'm pretty sure your right I think they're berthed in Colombo, and they've been non-functional for a while. Not sure if there is going to be any attempt to return them to service.
With Sayura, seeing as the Indians paid for the refit, I doubt that it was much more than a basic service job, I can't imagine them deciding to throw in a couple of SAM launchers into the deal.
With the LSL (RFA Sir Galahad), are you sure it can't berthed in Colombo Port? That's very strange. Colombo takes some quite large vessels. If you look here;
http://www.slpa.lk/portcom/Bp010/berth-manual2.asp?fdate=2006%2F12%2F06
If you look at the 3rd vessel on that list, Norasia Bellatrix, and then look here;
http://extrapah.havre-port.net/pls/portal/PORTAILPAH.DYN_FICHE_ESCALE.SHOW?p_arg_names=pnacle&p_arg_values=18202&p_arg_names=pescle&p_arg_values=169566
Among the salient features, her length is close to 300m, width is 30m and her draught is about 13m. If you then look here;
http://www.navynews.co.uk/ships/sirgalahad.asp
Sir Galahad is only about half her length, width is 20m and draught 5m. I really can't see why she wouldn't fit into Colombo Port. Kankesanthurai could be another matter, although even there since this is a landing ship you'd expect they could deliver it to port or a nearby beach. |
Sandman
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 6 Dec 2006 04:26:35 GMT Report for Abuse
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Guys
I tend to disagree on the hardware being the most important to win this war angle.
In war, just like in everything else, the most committed wins. In this respect, I think the SL Defence Forces are starting to make some headway at last, after being far behind the LTTE in cadre morale. It may be that the forces are recieving better training and equipment, as well as better quality treatment in all quarters. I wonder whether there exists a better compensation plan for those who die while on duty. If not, that may be more important to fix, than buying any more heavy and expensive weapons.
Finally, this will be a ground war, which will necessarily have to end in hand to hand combat in close quarters. In this kind of action I know that we have entire brigades who possess specialist experience fighting urban warfare, but so far the will to take them all the way to velu's doorstep has been lacking. As long as the war is limited to deaths of tamil podiyens in rural areas, velu and his gungho gangstas will not care a hoot. They are expendable anyway to maintain these bandits' luxury lifestyle. So the war necessarily has to become a source of threat to velu and his family personally at some stage. It needs to knock on his door.
The next stage of the war, if that is what it is going to be, is going to become a massively costly effort in terms of human lives, unless we are capable of carrying out a daring attack to kill Velu and the heirarchy by a precision attack. The Indians have been interested in such an op since Rajiv's murder, but are doubtful getting involved at this point due to political considerations.
The present govt has not balked at taking and acting on military decisions. Iy woudl be interesting to see if they'd dare venture skinning the tiger once and for all.
But most of all, the SLG can learn a lesson from the enemy; it is commitment at individual levels that wins battles, and there will never be a victory until the SLforces outmatch the commitment of the LTTE.
Edited By - Sandman - 6 Dec 2006 04:30:33 GMT |
Saervek
Joined: Dec 2006
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6 Dec 2006 05:09:03 GMT Report for Abuse
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GreyFox,
The Fearless-class vessels have basically the same problem. I seriously doubt we could build 15 or so Fearless type vessels without having to seriously redesign the ship. The Singaporeans can afford them because they have a budget that dwarfs ours. We'd probably have to delete the Mistral launchers/torpedo tubes/decoys, reduce the electronics and re-engine them (since an OPV doesn't really need to make 30kts). Plus the extensive automation would also probably cost a lot more, and we'd probably need to reduce that too in order to reduce build costs.
This kind of expansion would probably come at the cost of the FAC fleet, and like all the other large ships, we'd probably have difficulty using them in the Palk Straits and using them against the suicide tigers would probably require a small attendant flotilla to guard the vessels.
The reason why I think that paying 75 million for 1-2 modern vessels is alright is because when you take it in context with the amount of money the Navy wastes on other things (the Israeli FMVs are a good example, 26 million for two craft which probably didn't serve more than 4-5 yrs) it makes sense. What we really need is more Maritime Surveillance aircraft... with those we could operate a smaller number of OPVs out in the deep sea and use the FACs for inspections/combat in coastal waters. |
GreyFox
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6 Dec 2006 10:59:59 GMT Report for Abuse
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Saervek
I don't really think buying 1 or 2 modern vessels will give Lanka full control of the seas. The reason for the 15-20 OPVs requested by the Navy, is that it will seriously hamper the LTTE maritime activity and weapons smugglers.
The fearless class is only 55m long. Its not as big as a koni class frigate. You are right though about the re-design problems we will run into, but the main question is, can we make the final product cost less that other international OPVs?
If I remember correctly back in 1983 Colombo Dockyards made an OPV vessel themselves. It was 40m long and weighed 330 tons. I think the vessel was called 'Jayasagara'. It isn't a very good OPV by todays standards.
That was 23yrs ago, I'm pretty sure Colombo Dockyards can make significantly better OPVs these days, and at a lower than international sellers.
With regard to martitime surveillance aircraft, I think we ordered two sea-skimming UAVs from Pakistan a few months ago. We probably need more.
Edited By - GreyFox - 6 Dec 2006 11:20:03 GMT |
Mig-29C
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 6 Dec 2006 13:27:33 GMT Report for Abuse
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Good day to you all..
I will start again by apologising for not being able to answer your numerous questions sooner .. please do bear with me, I will do my best to eventually answer everyone's individual questions.
I've noticed recently that certain details I've revealed in this forum appear to be cropping up on several other forums related to the Sri Lankan conflict, including some pro LTTE thamil forums .. posters appear to be quoting certain facts I've provided on this forum, unsourced .. no matter :o), i do hope that people use the information sensibly..
Now coming to the questions posed:
Mr. Raptor
Can Mig-27m carry bombs weighing 1000-2000 Pounds? .. Basically, is it capable of carrying bombs which can crush terrorist leader's bunker?
The MiG-27M can carry 1000 or 2000 lb ordnance on pylons 1,2,3,4 and 7 except 5 and 6 - these pylons are not stressed to carry such a high weight in addition to C.G issues.
1-Starboard inboard engine intake pylon
2-Port inboard engine intake pylon
3-Starboard outboard wing glove pylon
4-Port outboard wing glove pylon
7-Underbelly Centreline pylon
5 and 6 are the Starboard/Port Aft Fuselage pylons.
The MiG-27M's currently with the SLAF do not have the capability to designate and drop American or Israeli LGB's by itself. This aircraft cannot carry and use the LITENING or the Thomson-CSF ATLIS II targeting pod, you need a MIL-STD-1553 DataBus which the MiG does not have. However, what the aircraft can do is to fly to an identified predetermined target, acquire the target using the aircrafts PrNK-23M targeting system, and drop a LGB like the Griffin or GBU-12. After weapon release the LGB will have to receive terminal guidance to its target from another aircraft with a laser designator (Searcher I UAV, Mi-24V with CoMPASS IV FLIR unit) or a special forces unit using a hand-held laser designator.
The MiG-27M can however launch Russian LG missiles like the The Kh-29L without needing an external designating pod. The PrNK-23M integrated nav/attack suite has a laser spot tracker and designator in the form of the Klyon-PM laser designator.
The advantages of the Kh-29L are numerous:
These precision guided missiles are considerably cheaper than western guided bombs yet posses the same degree of accuracy. The Kh-29L is valued at
$30000 and the Kh-29T at
$25000, this compares with the
$80,000+ price tag of a GBU-12 LGB.
The missile uses semi-active laser guidance and has a range up to 10 kilometres. The missile is equipped with a 317 kg penetrating warhead and the flight speed at impact is around 250 to 350 metres per second. The warhead is especially shaped for penetrating concrete. After launch the missile climbs to about 5000m, so the attack comes almost vertically. The fuze can be set either on the immediate explosion (for attacking such objects like bridges) or for short delay (for penetration of bunkers or other reinforced installations).
The missile can be fired from a range of distance's, 2-3 km to 7-8 km and from altitudes from 200m to 10,000m, at speeds between 600 and 1250 km/h.
In addition the Kh-29L can also be carried and fired from a Kfir C.7 using an ATLIS II targeting pod.
Another Russian 'bunker buster' is the KAB-500KR television guided bomb. The KAB-500KR TV guided bomb operates on a ''drop and forget'' principle. Target lock-on is achieved at a range of 15 to 17, and the warhead can easily penetrate a reinforced concrete barrier buried underground.
My sources tell me this new MiG order includes a certain quantity of Kh-29L missiles. I guess time will tell..
Hope this helps.
Mr. b2spirit
I would like to know the difference between fuel air munitions and thermobaric munitions if there are any. Also can you kindly explain the practical effectiveness in deploying such a weapon against the LTTE?
They basically accomplish the same mission .. I'm sure wikepedia will give you a pretty good description of this class of weapon.
Basically the Chechnya and Afghanistan conflicts demonstrated the superiority of thermobaric weapons against bunkers, buildings and tunnels compared with conventional blast/fragmentation munitions. Thermobaric weapons are able to overcome shortcomings of conventional blast/fragmentation and shaped-charge munitions for specific targets. For example, conventional shaped-charge, shoulder-launched rockets effective against armoured vehicles have had only limited success against buildings, field fortifications, machine gun posts and the like. The high velocity metal jet created by a shaped charge has a very narrow damage radius and travels in a straight line. Blast waves, on the other hand, can travel around corners and their effect is not based on penetration. Conventional countermeasures such as barriers (sandbags) and personnel armour are not effective against thermobaric weaponry. Conventional hard-target-penetrating fragmentation bombs have shown shortcomings for defeating tunnels and caves. Fragments can be stopped by walls and do not necessarily penetrate through a tunnel system.
Detonation of a high explosive device produces a rapid, localised energy release. The formation of a blast wave, thermal radiation, break-up of the munition casing and acceleration of the fragments dissipate this energy. In the case of conventional blast/fragmentation warheads, a large part of the energy is taken up by the break-up of the casing and acceleration of the fragments. Thermobaric weaponry usually has very thin casing and most of the energy ends up as a fireball and blast/shock wave. The energy release in explosions occurs over microseconds and is governed by the detonation velocity of the explosive. Detonation velocities of thermobaric explosives (3?4km/s) are similar to those of mining blast explosives, and considerably lower than those of military high explosives (about 8km/s).
Thermobaric weapons have 4 distinct injury mechanisms in an unconfined explosion. Thermal/Blast/Fragmentation and Damage radii injuries. Thermal injuries usually occur close to the origin of the explosion. The lethal range for burn injuries is defined by the size of the fireball. The lethal area for blast injuries overlaps and exceeds the area of thermal injuries. As pressure effects decline over distance, the blast injury lethality also decreases. The lethal range for fragment/blunt trauma events extends far beyond the lethal range for blast. Typical fragment velocities for conventional blast/fragmentation warheads are 1500m/s and fragments often travel for kilometres.
This implies that thermobaric weapons used in the open have limited lethal radii - which can be an advantage in situations where civilians or friendly forces are in the vicinity of the enemy position. However this radius is still far superior to the blast radius achieved from a conventional blast/fragmentation munition.
The target effect changes when explosives are used in a confined space. Fireball and blast wave can travel around corners and penetrate into areas where fragments cannot. Fragments can be stopped by walls, sandbags and personnel protection. Furthermore, blast waves are intensified when reflected by walls and other surfaces. Personnel inside a confined space will be subjected to much higher pressure and impulse levels than they would at the same distance from the charge in an open environment.
The practical implications of this weapon are numerous in the Sri Lankan theatre.
As described above this weapon would be ideal for clearing mines buried in the Muhamali and Pooneryn sectors in your country - A thermobaric system from Israel was developed for minefield clearing. The system uses a small rocket-propelled thermobaric charge which explodes over the minefield and activates exposed or buried mines.
This weapon would also be ideal for taking out LTTE artillery and mortar positions.
Thus far this weapon has not been used in the Northern or Eastern theatres in your country that I am aware of apart from one incident - I do know that 1 or 2 weapons were dropped in the Sampoor campaign.
This weapon would be an ideal precursor to any ground offensive.. however the SLAF and the Sri Lankan military will have to be extremely careful to avoid targeting civilian population centres and settlements .. accurate target identification and collateral damage assessment is paramount before this weapon is to be used.
Hope this helps.
Mr. GreyFox
Some of the posters here who have contacts in SLAF have stated that Lanka is interested in buying the FBC-1 bombers from china... Have you heard anything about this? .. Plus can you tell us which country manufactured the mystery aircraft SLAF has brought?
I have not seen or received any information about such a deal.. however as I explained to Mr Rataperata the SLAF does not need an aircraft in the category of the JH7 - for the insurgency the Sri Lankan military is currently fighting the MiG-27M, Kfir C.2/C.7 and Mi-24/35 HIND offers sufficient capability.
What the SLAF needs is more UAV's and a second Beech HiSAR reconnaissance aircraft.. wait and see :o)
Hope this helps.
Mr. GreyFox
Lanka started to make their own UAVs.. Mig-29c do you know anymore info on this?
I cannot tell you anything at this moment in time .. however I might reveal something in the new year :o)
Mr. rataperata
heard that we got Su 27 or 30 .. can you confirm this.. if true this can be your mistry Fighter..
This information is inaccurate .. the SLAF is not getting Su-27's or Su-30's.
Like I told Mr.Greyfox - wait and see dear sir :o) .. I will inform you when this aircraft is used.
I thought the forum might be interested in some detail about the previous and current MiG-27M order between the Sri Lankan and Ukrainian state.
There were numerous attempts made by Ukraine in the 90's to export former Russian MiG-27M aircraft - mainly to the Asian Bloc. However all the attempts reportedly failed due to the excessively high asking price, said to have been up to $16 million a copy. Eventually, in 2000, when the SLAF was looking for an affordable yet hard-hitting strike aircraft, elected to buy four MiG-27M's drawn amongst the Flogger-J's held in long-term storage at L'vov.
The deal included after-delivery warranty servicing for six months, an integrated logistic package comprising of Ground Equipment, Test equipment & Special tools required up to Intermediate level servicing. The package also included some spare parts and a considerable quantity of affordable unguided weapons. The aircraft delivered I was told had a remaining fatigue life of 6000 hrs.
Prior to shipment the MiG-27M's were refurbished at the L'vov overhaul facility.
Maintenance of this Aircraft basically falls into 3 categories - Operational, Intermediate & Depot level. The SLAF is geared to handle maintenance up to the intermediate level which is up to 800-1000 flying hours. Structural repairs to meet operational requirements can also be done in Sri Lanka. Major Structural Repairs & Overhaul Capabilities will have to be carried out outside the island.
Operational and Intermediate Field-level maintenance comprises shop-type work as well as on-equipment maintenance activities at maintenance levels other than depot. Intermediate or shop-type work includes limited repair of commodity-oriented assemblies and end items; job shop, bay, and production line operations for special requirements; repair of circuit boards; software maintenance; and fabrication or manufacture of repair parts, assemblies, and components.
Depot-level maintenance entails materiel maintenance requiring the major repair, overhaul, or complete rebuilding of weapon systems, end items, parts, assemblies, and subassemblies; manufacture of parts; technical assistance; and testing.
The package did not include Spare engines or product support for this aircraft comprising of AOG Services, Technical advice, Pool Exchange facility, Depot level Repair at the L'vov overhaul facility.
The current package I believe includes a couple of spare engines and some guided munitions.. But otherwise, it's a similar deal. However the forum should understand that Bribes and pay-offs are a common practise amongst the former CIS states when it comes to Military aircraft orders .. infact, bribes are also common amongst some notable foreign deals here in the US.. will tell you all on a later date..
The fact is the last SLAF MiG-27 combat flight was in July 2006 i think.. this aircraft was notably absentee in all subsequent SLAF operations from July onwards ..
Let me highlight further reasons why this aircraft is major trump card for the SLAF.
* The MiG-27M needs only 5 to 7mins from engine start up to take off without hurrying up, whereas the same sequence for the Kfir C.2/C.7 takes around 25mins and, another 5mins for INS alignment just before commencing the take-off run.
* The combat sorties flown in Sri Lanka typically lasted around 1hr 10mins. The MiG-27M routinely landed back with the tanks still containing some 600-800 litres of fuel. Compare this with the Kfir C.2/C.7 which relies on external fuel tanks to conduct the same mission.
To quote a former SLAF MiG-27M pilot:
''..Sometimes, when the ground power unit was delayed, we used to start up the engine in autonomous mode, using the onboard battery. Five minutes later, after aligning the INS, we commenced taxing: too often we were somewhat 'lazy' to perform taxing towards the far end of the runway, and in such situations used to taxi only to the nearest intersection connecting the apron with the runway, and then immediately performing the take off using the available runway sector which was 1,000 meter-long. We have mastered performing this trick with three tonnes of bomb load and in tailwind conditions too.''
To further demonstrate this aircrafts survivability let me refer the forum members to another conflict that happened not to long ago:
Basically as a point of reference .. in the Kargil conflict in 1999, IAF MiG-27MLs featured extensively in the fight over Tiger Hill. The terrain in the Kargil area is 16,000 to 18,000 feet above sea level, IAF aircraft were required to fly at about 20,000 feet. At these heights, the air density is 30% less than at sea level. This seriously compromised the manoeuvrability of ground attack aircraft like the MiG-27ML. The performance of the R-29B-300 turbojet engine also deteriorated as a result of higher altitude operation. The non-standard air density also affected the trajectory of weapons.
With all these adverse factors the MiG-27ML performed exceptionally, with the PrNK-23M integrated nav/attack suite delivering LGB and Un-Guided weaponry with considerable accuracy.
The fact that Pakistani MANPAD operators fired more than 50 shoulder fired SAM's (mainly Stinger FIM-92C's) against IAF MiG-27ML aircraft gives an indication of the air-defence threat environment the MiG was operating in .. Not a single aircraft received even a scratch.
In the Sri Lankan conflict alone 3 know MANPAD's were fired at low-level SLAF MiG-27Ms .. they never even got close..
I have seen it being reported that some of these air strikes on thamil tiger targets have killed cows, chickens and goats .. I am curious why no pictures of these casualties have been shown especially considering how eagerly pictures of human remains are posted.
To end this post .. I thought I might include this little excerpt, taken from a Ukrainian paper (translated into English) that interviewed a former Ukrainian Air Force pilot who flew MiG-27M's in Sri Lanka.
''..I had fought neither for my country nor for any foreign country. I just fought for the welfare and well-being of my family. I have done the job I was contracted for there, and earned some money too. I am not ashamed at all for fighting as a mercenary pilot and I have never concealed this fact. My country, after I had served it for 25 years, provided me with a pension equivalent to US $80 per month, and literally told me:
''You are dismissed''.
As a consequence, I was compelled under these circumstances to start searching for a new job. I am glad that I did this job, because I love it and it was also not in disagreement with my country's foreign policy.
It was the concluding period of my affair with the MiG-27 and I think that I and my comrades had a great chance. We flew the aircraft in a combat situation, and were allowed to do what we want. Thus all we did in the air in Sri Lanka depended upon our fantasy, as there were neither limitations nor control being exercised 'from the above'.
We received combat tasking from the Sri Lankan commanders calling for the target type, position, time on target and the request to destroy the assigned target. Everything else regarding mission planning was up to us as we had to undependably select bomb load, plot the route to and from target, build the profile of flight, specify the number and methods of attacks, etc. It was a combat pilot's dream job and we were lucky to test the aircraft to the full extent in a real-world combat situation.''
hope this post helps
Take Care everyone
Edited By - Mig-29C - 6 Dec 2006 20:42:05 GMT |
snake2
Joined: Aug 2006
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6 Dec 2006 14:02:40 GMT Report for Abuse
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Sandman,
Agree with you 100%!! More than anything else its a reluctance to take the initiative. However there have been some exceptions, although not nearly enough. Its hard to imagine there was a time when attacking meant 'troops moved out from Forward Defence Lines towards enemy lines at the AUSPICIOUS hour of...' Any LTTE commander with an 'Apa litha' could have probably predicted troop movements pretty accurately.
Sun Tzu said ' The best strategy is to attack the enemie's plans'. (or something like that, I don't have the 'art of war' with me)I guess we are starting to see a bit more of that now.
Anyway like you said, no amount of hardware would mean a thing unless there's a will to fight. In this, the Tigers are pretty strong. |
b2spirit
Joined: Oct 2006
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6 Dec 2006 14:39:29 GMT Report for Abuse
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Mig 29c,
Thank you for the in depth explanation about the thermobaric weapons. Im glad to hear that we have been using them against the terrorists.
I have another question for you mig 29. I haven't heard of any instances where the cannons of the fighters have been used by the SLAF. I saw your explanation about what the cannon in the mig-27 would do to LTTE boats. But apart from that what would be the impact of using the cannon against ground targets. What are the pros and cons of using such a weapon against the LTTE?
Regards,
B2 |
Raptor
Joined: Oct 2006
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6 Dec 2006 15:16:24 GMT Report for Abuse
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Mig-29C,
Thanks a lot for the detailed information. It's really helpful. |
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