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The MIG27 affair - Fighter Pilots reveal what the `defence analysts` forgot to tell
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SAS1
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 21 Aug 2007 23:00:18 GMT Report for Abuse
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| SenaM, I can see why the Mig-29SM might be seen as over kill to counter the LTTE aircrafts and the F7G is probably more suited for the role. But my only concern is that the LTTE may not fly again for a long time, and the F7s will be 'gathering dust' in the hangers and will still cost millions of dollars in the long run to keep them airworthy, but without getting much use out of them. Where as, if we get a multi-role aircraft it can be used with the Mig-27s and the Kfirs for strategic ground attacks, as well as countering the LTTE air threat. Plus the SLAF will be internationally recognised as an outfit with relatively modern capability, which is always a good thing. |
SenaM
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 22 Aug 2007 10:43:20 GMT Report for Abuse
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SAS1
But my only concern is that the LTTE may not fly again for a long time, and the F7s will be 'gathering dust' in the hangers and will still cost millions of dollars in the long run ..
I think you have missed the point .. what is most important is 'meeting the current threat'. LTTE night-raiders have 'run' at leat two sorties, and they have been able to get back to their base/s. There is a possibility also, that they may have other types .. possibly a turbo-prop type like the Pilatus PC-7, which has not made its 'debut', yet. It is most important this air-borne threat of the LTTE is 'met', effectively.
The Mig 29SM would be a bad choice in this context for several reasons .. - a) No experience on the type .. this is true for pilots, as well as maintenance people. It will mean getting down foreign crews, to meet the LTTE air-borne threat .. as the requirement is 'immediate'. (Several detracting features about that .. excessive cost .. bad publicity .. from having to bring-in foreign pilots, and high capital cost for the type ..)
Our pilots are proficient on the F-7 .. and if the in-coming F-7s are equipped for 'taking-on' the LTTE air-borne threat (equipped for target interception at night-time) .. then they are operational, soon as they are received. Also more F-7s, means capacity to engage several threats .. at different locations, if the LTTE has that capacity, and chooses to mount such attacks. Do'nt think you can 'grumble' too much with the SLAF choice.
And as regards having too many F-7s .. do'nt believe that argument holds. With more pilots inducted into the SLAF, there is a need for more high performance a'cft .. for them to remain in 'practice', and retain proficiency in handling this type a'cft. It will be more cost-effective to 'run off' these hours on an a'cft lke the F-7 .. still equivalent to a F-16 .. than say on Mig-29SMs. (Hourly Operating Costs for the Mig-29SM will be much higher).
Edited By - SenaM - 22 Aug 2007 11:02:42 GMT |
Eksath
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 22 Aug 2007 11:36:52 GMT Report for Abuse
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Http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htmurph/articles/20070822.aspx
'but how did Sri Lanka get their MiG-27s so cheap (about $2 million each, versus $3 million for a Kfir). Ukraine had lots of old, Cold War era, MiG-27 fighter bombers. These were well worn aircraft, with only about a thousand flight hours left on them. But the Ukrainians were willing to sell them cheap, and, as a bonus, offer inexpensive refurbishment services, that would add 2-3,000 flight hours to the aircrafts life. '
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KURAL
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 22 Aug 2007 11:40:56 GMT Report for Abuse
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SenamM,
India is far advanced in aerospace rather than in aeronautics, it can explain why the development of LCA Tejas's Turbo engine which began in 1986 is so long, and will be completed totally in 2010.
So don't forget the development of GSLV and PSLV vehicles.
SenaM why these Indian engineers left their countries for US ?
Because US situation was better than India. But now with Indian economy growth, lot of brains are coming back from US and UK.. Why ? Because India's situation is better.
If Sri lanka's situation is better than now, I can promise you that a lot of our engineers will too come back (if salaries are reasonable)
Edited By - KURAL - 22 Aug 2007 11:53:28 GMT |
KURAL
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22 Aug 2007 11:51:49 GMT Report for Abuse
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SAS1,
You are right, to concept a motor is not the most difficult, but manufacturing the components is more complex.
You have to concept machines to create these pieces..Imagine it ! |
SenaM
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22 Aug 2007 16:15:03 GMT Report for Abuse
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Kural
If Sri lanka's situation is better than now, I can promise you that a lot of our engineers will too come back
Always thought so, happy to see you confirming .. Just imagine what a good 'exploratory' program followed by a well-planned developmental (drilling) program could do to our 'propsects'.
In 1965 Norway was a relatively 'poor' country in Northern Europe .. noted for its fisheries and small-scale ship-building activity .. not much else. (Yes, of course .. there were also the 'rein-deer' and Santa Claus). Then they found Oil, and Gas .. in massive quantities in the North Sea. Some 40 years later, it is the richest country in the world (on a per capita basis) .. acclaimed to have possibly best 'technology' & 'know-how' in deep-sea exploration and extraction of petroleum resources .. a world-power.
This is what we should be 'doing' now .. mounting a developmental program to 'commonly' benefit all peoples of Sri Lanka. Instead of 'wallowing' in it, we should end the 'War' as soon as possible. But it takes two to do that .. as long as the LTTE remains armed with long range weapons, and a 'suicide' brigade, GOSL will have no option other than to take the fight 'across' to the LTTE .. and force them to dis-arm.
This Island has promise of becoming one of the 'most favoured' places on Earth. You may want to call it Eelam .. but the Greek word 'Elysium' might describe it better. (Instead of allowing Norway to 'grab' our riches, and give back a 'pittance' in return .. I hope the Sinhala and Tamil people can 'patch up' their differences, and 'work' together for their common advancement).
Edited By - SenaM - 22 Aug 2007 16:28:57 GMT |
Eksath
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23 Aug 2007 02:10:51 GMT Report for Abuse
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SenaM,
It may sound plausible .. but it still an 'argument' only. As far as I am aware, those countries which have faced this type of threat (and much worse, for that matter), have not considered a sophisiticated aircraft like the Mig-29SM against a 'threat' from a low-performance (slow) a'cft flying low-level at night time ..
..and there are countries that have. One of the best examples that relates to the SL situation (comparable) is the Cuban Air Force shoot down of two out of three Cessna 337 Skymasters that repeatedly carried out low level intrusions over Havana (dropping leaflets instead of bombs). These aircrafts took of from a private airfield approx. 100 miles away from Havana and came in low and fast into Cuban air space and raced back out. (this is similar the advance warning Colombo has and the size/speed of the aircraft are relatively comparable).
This painting was done in memory of the pilots. You can see the MiG 29 in position. The cruise ship beneath provided eye witnesses off the event.
http://www.hermanos.org/Shootdown%20of%20BTTR%20-%20Febuary%2024,%201996_files/image002.jpg
These missions happened a number of times and the considerable Cuban AA assets were not able to down them in daylight . However, the MiG 29s were able to get two out of the three with R-77 missiles. The third was able to evade back into US air space and lived to tell the tale.
Here is the recorded radio transcripts from the survivor:
http://www.hermanos.org/Transcripts%20on%20board%20N2506%20.htm
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SenaM
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23 Aug 2007 10:06:27 GMT Report for Abuse
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Eksath
I was not aware of that particular incident. However, there are some features about this engagement which may make the comparison not truly valid. For instance what about the warning made available to the Cuban Mig-29 pilot .. and the 'vectoring' ? Feel sure, the Cubans had a good radar system available .. so as to be able to 'direct' the Mig-29 pilot onto his target. Another factor assisting him would have been time of day .. this was a 'day-light' interdiction.
SLAF had to address 'basic' issues first .. like having good radar systems (long and short range), and a good communications/control system. (Not sure whether they have got that even now). If they have the radar and control systems in place .. then the F-7s (with appropriate systems, aboard) should be able to take 'down' the LTTE 'night-raider' just as easily as the Mig-29 could .. and at a lesser cost. But it is my belief the 'low-level air-defense system' now deployed, is based largely on missile batteries inter-linked to controlling radars, and an associated command & control system. (These would be light-weight missiles). F-7s are probably seen as part of a 'dual' (or redundant) system, installed to make 'doubly sure' the LTTE raider does not return to base.
Edited By - SenaM - 23 Aug 2007 12:57:34 GMT |
SAS1
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23 Aug 2007 13:12:40 GMT Report for Abuse
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| If SLAF and defence secretary has done an evaluation of their requirements using international experts and have decided that the Mig-29SM is the option, I don't think the general public and politicians should question that. Because we only know limited details of the SLAF strategy and requirements. If you take the UK for example, they are commiting billions of pounds for the JSF project but have already spend billions on the Eurofighter Typhoon which was significantly over budget and late. However you don't get the opposition causing a massive row over it, because when it comes to matters of national security, the details cannot be exposed and it is best left for the armed forces and teh defence personnal to deal with it. |
Eksath
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24 Aug 2007 00:55:36 GMT Report for Abuse
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SenaM,
However, there are some features about this engagement which may make the comparison not truly valid.
I don't agree. The only difference was that the MiGs (there was one MiG 29 and one Mig 23), were airborne and in 'hunting mode'. They were using transponder encryption and engaged in low level maneuvering to stay off NORAD radar. The USAF radar analyst at MArch AFB in California was able to pick up the MiGs as they would occasionally 'pop up' on his radar.
In SL case, a similar combat air patrol (CAP) mission will act as the barrier force. It would be ready to intercept either approaching or retreating enemy aircraft. If the SLAF HAD a capable aircraft on inventory and it WAS airborne, there WAS sufficient warning on all three attacks for an interception.
For instance what about the warning made available to the Cuban Mig-29 pilot .. and the 'vectoring' ?
The same that is available to the SLAF pilot. Havana control is analogous to BIA control. If you look at the previous transcript you can see Havana Control departure clearance for a Cubana flight.
In SL case, while the SLAF radar was not operational, the BIA radar picked it up but was too late to scramble a interceptor or a pursuit aircraft.
Feel sure, the Cubans had a good radar system available .. so as to be able to 'direct' the Mig-29 pilot onto his target.
In the months preceding the shootdown, it is estimated (by the Cubans) that the Skymasters intruded into Cuban space 25 times.
A small aircraft flying low at a relatively low/fast speed in a delibrate evasive flight path can easily exploit even the most comprehensive radar net. The interceptors in postion was the key. Hence the need for the SLAF to have a capable interceptor.
Another factor assisting him would have been time of day .. this was a 'day-light' interdiction.
Please see the transcript below. Notice how the pilot establishes the the radar lock. This does not need daylight. The Cubans wanted visual confirmation hence the daylight helped. The SLAF will not be wasting time with visual confirmation as Sri lankan airspace has a very limited number of aircrafts hence the SLAF can operate in Beyond Visual Range Rules (BVRR). This opens up the very powerful capability of using maximum range interception and 'fire and forget' missiles.
Edited By - Eksath - 24 Aug 2007 01:49:29 GMT |
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