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Ranil on forced eviction of Tamils
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Mucha-linda
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 14 Jun 2007 02:16:34 GMT Report for Abuse
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Before i go onto respond to - Have we got our names correct? just to make sure - I am Freddie and You are Anderai? RIGHT? (Although I really think your a cross between Anderai and Mahadanamuttha. But that?s ok - for now we will just stick with Anderai) :) :) OK?? :)
ANI,
That's fine. Yep, you are Freddie and I am Andare. Nevertheless, if Andare is not funny enough to call me by his name, you may call me Ranil Wickramasinghe.
OK, lets get back to the business.
In a matter of a mere 1 1/2 years...After being elected BY the LTTE (thanks to the 1 billion Bribe)
1. Economy in RUIN.
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..
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8. The Solution put forward by MR to the most pressing issue in the country has been REJECTED by EVERY SINGLE political party including the JVP and JHU!
I think your above opinion has more to do with the differences in our priorities than anything else. You may be someone having the view that the success of a leader should be measured using his/ her economic credentials. Not that I agree to those points you might have copied across from Irudina :) but for me, national security and territorial integrity should always remain as the number one priority to any leader. Referring back to a point I made earlier, I can also assure you that it is the way Suddas usually think, even though it may not actually what they want us to think. If the territorial integrity of a country is protected, bringing back the economy into whatever shape we want thereafter is not a massive task. Unfortunately, the opposite of this does not work in the same way. If a leader let the country to divide in return of economic prosperity, it in deed is a humongous task to bring back the country together.
Speaking about being TACTFUL, it is quite hilarious to see how you are trying to reduce all those betrayals done by RW to a mere tactful strategy. Mister, being tactful is not withdrawing 64 military positions in Peninsular Jaffna upon a request made by LTTE, and thereby limiting the SL forces only to HSZs (knowing very well the consequences of such actions given what happened in early 90s). Being tactful is neither letting well known LTTE supporters/ organizations like Burghoff Foundation and Sathish Nambiyar to conduct surveys and to advice SL defense forces on how to de-assemble HSZs. Norwegians themselves declared the generous donations they have made to LTTE and to their front organizations (like TRO). What did RW's government did. Have they at least uttered a single word against Norwegians to register their displeasure?
Mister don't abuse the meaning of being tactful. Being tactful is not about keep turning blind eyes to all those thousands of CFA violations by LTTE without pressurizing the Monitors to act against those. That is just a summary.
Where would have been the end of this so called Tactful strategy of RW in your opinion? For all those tactful decisions, what has he achieved in return? Yes, no bombs went off in Colombo. But what about the misery came on to lives of those Sinhalas and Muslims (and some Tamils) living in villages within and closer to areas controlled by LTTE. What about the right we lost to call North and East as historical homelands of Sinhalas.
Check out the Reasons why EU BANNED the LTTE. Note: 'BANNED' the LTTE. Not just conducted a Few raids!
http://www.lankanewspapers.com/news/2006/5/6952.html
Thanks for brining this up. Yes Freddie, I noted the word BANNED. However, you have not noted the day this article was published, a day belonging to the aftermath of MRs election as the president. Not only 25 countries of EU, it was also during the times of MR when Canada banned LTTE. And that was being much less TACTFUL with respect to RW. I am not saying that EUs decision to ban LTTE was solely resulted by the diplomacy of MR. But it remains a fact that RW being that much TACTFUL has earned nothing in return.
Freddie, let me stop here without going any further, as there are few things I need to finalize before this Friday. Sorry if I have disappointed you, but I am currently engaged in two other discussions (with PERA and MAGHA) and two other fun making activities (with FAIRPLAY and MAGEYCHINTANA). I need to have some time to reply to them too.
-Muchalinda the Andare
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Edited By - Mucha-linda - 14 Jun 2007 02:22:36 GM |
Mucha-linda
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14 Jun 2007 02:22:56 GMT Report for Abuse
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I didn't expect anything less from what you had to give me in your reply to my post. As usual your argument is based on finding faults in my posting with no counter argument to the questions I raised. Let me clarify things for you.
MAGEYCHINTANA,
It is not about finding faults in your posting, but I usually see no point wasting my time to respond to someone who cannot put forward an argument that does not contradict itself. Look, how much you have to retract, as a result of what I pointed out.
Two days ago, you were criticizing me for being ignorant to understand the difference in conduct by US and SL governments in curbing terrorism. This is what you said on 12th,
I didn't realise you were ignorant enough that you couldn't understand the difference between what the Sri Lankan government did and what's being done in the USA to curb terrorism.
Once those obvious contradictions are pointed out, you have to swallow two thirds of your own argument. This is what you said on 13th,
So far, there is not much difference between SL and US government. Agreed.
That is exactly what I wanted to point out. See, finding faults in your argument is not something worthless.
To elaborate bit more, I have nowhere said that I, as an individual, accept these extra-judicial methods (and that is why I had no problems calling them extra-judicial in the first place). The issue I had here was about UNPers (Ranil faction) and Eelamists making a big issue out of this, as if no such things have ever happened anywhere in this universe. Don't forget, this is how I first started.
As usual, UNPers and Eelamists are BLOWING THIS COMPLETELY OUT OF PROPORTION. Government is not evicting all the Tamils from Colombo. What they are doing is just transferring those who found temporary shelter in Lodges who came from North and East.
For records, let me also respond to the remaining one third of your post.
When there is no sufficient evidence but a mere speculation, only thing we should have done was to closely monitor these individuals. THIS IS THE POINT WHERE OUR GOVERNMENT DIFFERS FROM WESTERN GOVERNMENTS AS FAR AS HANDLING TERRORISM IS CONCERNED.
Mister, when it comes to employing extra-judicial methods, there are no international standards or protocols governing how a country should conduct. Every country goes by their own blend of tactics and no one can argue that SL should do the same things done by US or any other country. For example, US, being a rich and powerful country, spend millions of Dollars to upgrade their security screenings while maintaining places like JTF-GTMO where as in a country like UK, it may take the form shooting down suspicious elements at close range, or PM intervening to stop investigations into bribes paid to Saudi Princes in the name of National Security. In case of countries like Sri Lanka, who has not much money to invest on surveillance techniques, they send people from North and East back to their 3000 years old homelands, who cannot provide valid reasons for their stay in Colombo.
So when I mean play by the rules, I'm talking about playing by THEIR rules. So that they will keep their mouths shut.
If this is what you seriously meant by *playing by the rules*, I have no problems agreeing to that. As I have already pointed out in my discussion with Freddie Silva, we, to some extent, have to play by *their* rules because we are not economically independent. There shouldn't be any doubts about that. If what you are saying is that Mahinda aka Motta Raala is not playing by the rules laid to us by the powerful Western Countries, I am in complete compliance with you. However, if it meant that we have to play by the rules which other powerful Western countries are also playing by, my answer is that there neither exists other Western countries that play by the rules nor such an internationally accepted rule to play by (in case of curbing terrorism).
-Muchalinda
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Edited By - Mucha-linda - 14 Jun 2007 03:53:23 GM |
gajan99
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 14 Jun 2007 02:23:16 GMT Report for Abuse
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Anizam,
Sorry now only I saw your comment on Wind(normally I dont read all your postings in detail as they are filled with irrelevant things).
Regarding WIND the problem is actually in any power system there are limitations in addiing wind power, generally country like us we can go only up to 10% of the total capacity.
Because it affects very much on the system stability . the main reason as you can simply understand is the WIND you cant store and not continues,when the wind flow suddenely reduces or stops it very much affect on the system.
If you have a power system with majority with wind plants you will have black outs evey hour.
In countries like Denmark and Netherlands where very stable and continuous wind streams exist , they can go up to 15-18%.
I totally agree with you we can still add some more wind but again as a SECONDARY source not as a primary source.
Presently Srilnaka urgently need in the boost in the Primary.Parallelly we can develop secondary sector.
there are few sites which are favourable.You need a long term flow record to decide.
ANGATA HULAN PARA DANUNA PALIYATAMA ,it is difficult to decide.
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gajan99
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14 Jun 2007 02:34:05 GMT Report for Abuse
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Well said Mucha,
It is very difficult to convince these half boiled experts.
It is so unfortunate there are very few who see the reality. |
mageychintana
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 14 Jun 2007 10:27:35 GMT Report for Abuse
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Mucha,
I didn't realise you were ignorant enough that you couldn't understand the difference between what the Sri Lankan government did and what's being done in the USA to curb terrorism.
When I mentioned the above, I meant that the USA doesn't resort to the kind of thing that our government did recently.
So far, there is not much difference between SL and US government. Agreed.
When I said the above, what I was trying to do was to show you the similarities between our government and the USA as far as handling terrorism goes so that you can see the disimilarities more clearly. (Disimilarity being what our government did which the USA wouldn't do) Clearly, you need things to be explained just like to a two year old in order to be able to understand. I was expecting for you to understand the similarities and the dismilarities after my first posting, but then clearly that was a mistake on my part for expecting that from you. What lead me to call you ignorant was because of the trouble you were having with distinguishing the two systems. Had you understood the disimilarity after my first query, you would have put forward the following argument then.
In case of countries like Sri Lanka, who has not much money to invest on surveillance techniques, they send people from North and East back to their 3000 years old homelands, who cannot provide valid reasons for their stay in Colombo.
You could have easily stated the above and explained why we can't do things like how its done in the western country due to a lack of resources instead of unecessarily wasting time to find faults in my arguments so that you can conveniently avoid the subject.
Now that we got your 'convenient' confusion out of the way, lets analyse what you said about our country not having enough resources. Mister, many of our 'patriot mallila' could have underestimated the costs of fighting this war. But let me tell you this, fighting a terrorist outfit that constantly resorts to guerilla tactics does not come with a cheap price tag. Running away from a warzone and seeking shelter in a more stable environment might be a valid enough reason for those Tamils although it might look invalid to some of our 'patriot mallila'. If we are going for a military solution we have to bare all costs and be prepared to suffer all consequences. And at a time when our government is trying to justify to the IC that we are trying to do is liberate the innocent Tamils from the clutches of terrorists who are claiming to fight for a bogus cause such an unfair move by the government doesn't help our cause at all. Although you claim to be very mature, had it being you who was a Tamil genuinely seeking refuge then you would feel like you were being unfairly judged and treated. This is exactly the type of situation that is keeping this 'bogus' conflict alive upto this date making it look not so 'bogus' to the IC.
Contd... |
mageychintana
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14 Jun 2007 11:12:40 GMT Report for Abuse
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Contd...
It is not only UNPers who condemned such a move by the government but the whole of the IC did as well. Eventually the SC put out its opinion too when it ruled against these evictions.
However, if it meant that we have to play by the rules which other powerful Western countries are also playing by, my answer is that there neither exists other Western countries that play by the rules nor such an internationally accepted rule to play by (in case of curbing terrorism).
As a 'full boiled expert' who seems to be living in 'reality' you again fail to understand the reality of the situation. Mister, today's world is more integrated together than it ever was in the past and countries that choose to act against the accepted norms would face isolation. Superior Nations have set standards that other nations (like ours) have to abide to in order to be accepted by the IC. Of course we can very easily show them the finger (which I personally would have loved to see it being done if our nation was economically well off) but risk ourselves of being isolated.It's pretty obvious that you like to live in your fairy tale world so that you can conveniently forget about the 'rules'. But the reason why this was a big deal for the IC was because we were not playing by the rules that you choose to ignore that have been set by powerful western nations. Obviously if such rules and standards didnt exist, then the IC wouldn't be crying out as much.
ps: I'm glad you find replying to me as 'fun making' as I find replying to you. Hey... wow... There's some common ground.. Well thats a starter eh.. |
anizam
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14 Jun 2007 12:25:56 GMT Report for Abuse
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Dearest Anderai!! :)
That's fine. Yep, you are Freddie and I am Andare. Nevertheless, if Andare is not funny enough to call me by his name, you may call me Ranil Wickramasinghe.
Sure if I ever get mad at you I will call you RW. But rest assured i will never call you MR, because i wouldn?t insult EVEN my Worst enemy like that. Take for example Gamiya - in our heated exchanges i have called him a 'Hori Balla' and a 'Buffalo' but never MR! :) :)
Not that I agree to those points you might have copied across from Irudina :)
Yes - when you have NO response to FACTS ? Sunday leader and Irudina become very convenient targets. We both know very well, my source for the above was not the leader group.
but for me, national security and territorial integrity should always remain as the number one priority to any leader??
If the territorial integrity of a country is protected, bringing back the economy into whatever shape we want thereafter is not a massive task?..
If a leader let the country to divide in return of economic prosperity, it in deed is a humongous task to bring back the country together?.
I can also assure you that it is the way Suddas usually think, even though it may not actually what they want us to think?..
Having a CFA, using that opportunity trying to convince the Tamils that there is an Alternative and TRYING to force the LTTE to accept a Federal Solution, with the Full backing of the International Community is NOT dividing a country. This ?slogan? that CFA = Dividing the country is something that BANKRUPT politicians came up with because they have NOTHING else to offer the country. As I pointed out earlier ? MR (and the so called ?Patriots?) has misruled the country in EVERY possible arena of governance. The ONLY ?slogan? left now is ?Protecting the countries territorial integrity?. For politicians like MR and the JVP ? this is a mere political slogan they use to fool the gullible public and some how cling onto power. I can assure you, people who really believe this crap have nothing but a back-ward looking tribal mentality.
Minster ? MR and the gang have Divided the country along ethnic lines more than any other leader (except for Perhaps SWRD and may be JRJ). To me a Separate state is first and foremost a mental thing than a Physical territorial thing. When you make innocent people believe they are second class citizens in a country by racist remarks and continuously harassing them, you are making them believe a separate state is the only option. You are driving them directly into the hands of the LTTE. You are justifying the reason the LTTE started this campaign. That also makes a government no different than a terrorist organization.
To fight the type of war, the likes you talk about, you need money. Lots of it. So this talk of war first and then worry about the economy is nothing but wishful thinking, at best.
I don?t need a Sudda to decide what I should believe or not believe. Im quite capable of making that judgment all by myself taking into accounting what I see. Suddah, like any other human community have failed in certain area and have had success in others. The area they have done pretty well is nation building and governance. At least they have done a heck of a lot better than us. That is why people like you, I, Basil and Gotabaya Rajapaksha migrated to Suddas countries. If its good for you and I (and basil and a majority of members of LNP) to live in Suddas countries and enjoy all the benefits, then there is nothing wrong in trying to emulate some of the things they have done successfully, in Srilanka. As I said its only a person with tribal mentality, rejects everything foreign even though everything they have done in their own countries have failed miserably.
Edited By - anizam - 14 Jun 2007 12:26:32 GMT |
anizam
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14 Jun 2007 12:27:01 GMT Report for Abuse
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However, you have not noted the day this article was published, a day belonging to the aftermath of MRs election as the president. Not only 25 countries of EU, it was also during the times of MR when Canada banned LTTE.
So all this happened because of MR? Good one! :) That is EXACTLY why I asked you to read the REASONS for the Banning. See Anderai ? you are just absolutely brilliant at taking news items which support your view and throwing away anything that opposes it. Just to refresh your memory - ALMOST EVERY Reason given for the Banning is related to the LTTE violating the CFA. For example...
3. Severely condemns the renewed campaign of attacks by the LTTE and the high level of human rights violations committed by both sides and the constant breaches of the ceasefire agreement;
4. Deplores the gross violations of the Cease-Fire Agreement by the LTTE through actions at sea, in particular the attack of 11 May on the Sri Lankan naval force, which resulted in many casualties and put SLMM monitors in grave danger;
Good try never the less!!
Mister, being tactful is not withdrawing 64 military positions in Peninsular Jaffna upon a request made by LTTE, and thereby limiting the SL forces only to HSZs (knowing very well the consequences of such actions given what happened in early 90s).
I agree with you that several installations were removed. However, they were done with the full concurrence of the then Jaffna Commander Gen Sarath Fonseka. Just to remind you - it the RW who brought Sarath Fonseka as Jaffna Commander to begin with. As part of the De-escalation process, the LTTE demanded not only the removal of the camps you mentioned but the entire HSZ around Palaly. You might remember, this request was put forward to Gen Forseka, who agreed to remove the high security zones PROVIDED the LTTE gave up their Long-range guns. When the LTTE refused, the request to remove the HSZ were also rejected. That's why the HSZ stood right throughout.
What about the right we lost to call North and East as historical homelands of Sinhalas.
HOw did you lose it? The LTTE banished sinhala, tamil and Muslims who opposed then long before the CFA. What about how MRs is today justifying that LTTE claims that tamils are treated as second class citizens and should be given a separate homeland. Your own JVP said the same thing.
Mister don't abuse the meaning of being tactful. Being tactful is not about keep turning blind eyes to all those thousands of CFA violations by LTTE without pressurizing the Monitors to act against those. That is just a summary.
I also dont think being Tactful is - ruining our countries economy, international image, making tamils feel like second class citizens and driving them back right into the hands of the LTTE and there by justifying the LTTEs reasons for demanding a separate state?
For all those tactful decisions, what has he achieved in return? Yes, no bombs went off in Colombo
:) :). Im glad you asked me this question.
1. We rebuild our economy which was devastated by the Mis-rule of CBK and the LTTE military success at elephant pass and at Katunayaka.
2. Saved thousands of lives.
3. Most moderate Tamils, who were supportive of the LTTE, because they thought there was no other option for them, like Arnandasagiri turned against the LTTE and Tamils politicians in Tamil Nadu.
4. The LTTE was banned in EU and Canada and as I showed you earlier the REASONS for the banning for clearly stated ? Violation of the CFA.
5. The world saw the Brutality of the LTTE ? the issues like recruiting under aged child soldiers, came into the Fore front.
6. The LTTE lost its entire Eastern Command. This is a Direct result of the CFA. An org like the LTTE thrives in times of conflict. When you have no one to fight you start fighting each other. LTTEs Under lying difference which were kept under rug because they had a common enemy to fight, came out into the open. Today the recent military success in the east is a Direct result of this. The military set back the LTTE suffered by the loss of its entire eastern command is only equal to to it losing Jaffna.
You and I can spend months debating if the LTTE suffered or gained during the CFA. There are arguments for and against both claims. However, the bottom line is this. More than you or I, the LTTE knows what they gained and what they lost during the period of RW. Based on that, the LTTE made a clear choice during the last presidential elections and made MR the president. To me this is the biggest verdict given on the effectiveness of RWs CFA and the so called international safety net. I know your a spin doctor who will attempt to twist and turn almost anything to fit your theories. BUt this is one you will never be able to spin - becuase LTTE not only spoke but they did what they had to do. WOrds speak a HECK of a lot louder than actions.
I understand that you are having debates with many others. So you can respond to me when ever times permits. I might not be on here during the weekend either.
Apologies for the lengthy response, but I thought it was required.
Sincerely Freddie! :)
Edited By - anizam - 14 Jun 2007 18:06:46 GMT |
Pera
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 14 Jun 2007 12:29:16 GMT Report for Abuse
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So called International Community is 'outsourcing Torture' to extract information from potential terrorists, to protect their countries these days.
Our idiots who believe that IC is 'pure' do not understand that.
PERA
Edited By - Pera - 14 Jun 2007 12:30:29 GMT |
Pera
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14 Jun 2007 12:34:32 GMT Report for Abuse
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This is US. Where my friend Anizam Lives. They do better than un-lodging Lodgers for Muslims :)
US accused of torture flights
Stephen Grey
AN executive jet is being used by the American intelligence agencies to fly terrorist suspects to countries that routinely use torture in their prisons.
The movements of the Gulfstream 5 leased by agents from the United States defence department and the CIA are detailed in confidential logs obtained by The Sunday Times which cover more than 300 flights.
Countries with poor human rights records to which the Americans have delivered prisoners include Egypt, Syria and Uzbekistan, according to the files. The logs have prompted allegations from critics that the agency is using such regimes to carry out torture by proxy a charge denied by the American government.
and this is how UK behaved behind the screen :)
Some of the information from the suspects is said to have been used by MI5 and MI6, the British intelligence services. The admissibility in court of evidence gained under torture is being considered in the House of Lords in an appeal by foreign-born prisoners at Belmarsh jail, south London, against their detention without trial on suspicion of terrorism.
PERA
Edited By - Pera - 14 Jun 2007 12:36:43 GMT |
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