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Kfir mishap averted
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Eksath
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 15 Feb 2007 05:23:23 GMT Report for Abuse
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Mig29C,
Thank you for the detailed reply. It perplexes me that the SLAF has not moved to provide a 24/7 airborne survey of the seas. I observe the LTTE's so called 'fast attack gunboats' pictured on the web of considerable size that would -by their footprint- be quite vulnerable to an airborne detection program. I realize the nature of the sea lanes around SL, make it a very busy area and the LTTE have no qualms about using deceit and trickery to pretend to be civilian. That said, the inshore areas need to be denied to the enemy and SLAF DOES have air superiority over the battlefield. I think the advantage needs to be used to the fullest. Perhaps, the army/navy brass who seem to be the ranking officers in the Overall Operation Command, do not have a full appreciation of the doctrine of Air Power (?) The SLAF seems to have assumed a support role for the SL war on terror. Perhaps, the current reliance/sucess of precision strikes may change the institutional thinking. Just my 2 cents.
Some cursory background is below. Please correct me ,if my facts are wrong :-)
In the late '8os and early '90s the SLAF operated a No.3 Maritime Squadron tasked with detection of LTTE gun runners etc. SLAF assembled a motley crew of Herons,Doves,and Skymasters to watch the seas. (sidenote: the current SLAF commander used to be a commander in this squadron). These aircrafts had considerable history with the SLAF and am not sure of how effective they were. They are all with the SLAFs Aircraft Preservation Unit (a.k.a the SLAF museum) now. Other aircrafts have also flown these missions, too. I remember a Y-12 that was lost on such a mission.
My monday morning quarterback thoughts on the SLAF maritime ops:
On paper,i think the Skymasters with their good FAC capabilities would be apt for this job. They could loiter for a considerable time and then call in the fast movers for the kill. Again, the SLAF have considerable experience/training for this type. I believe they operated as many as 6 of them at one time.
The 421 you referred to was delivered for aerial survey use by the civilian survey department circa. 1981. I remember it doing a 'wheels up' landing a while back (?). I am sure she has returned to duty since then but she is still not the best with her low wing design (just a personal bias) when one has long periods of visual scanning involved. But,it might be a different story with an oboard electronics suite. I was hoping more along the lines of refurbishing or purchasing 337s on the civilian market to act as a dedicated early warning system. (I love the O-2 design and SLAF has type experience). Davis-Monthan should still have mothballed USAF frames that the DOD may release under the FMA program to a friendly country like SL.
Also, the No.4 squadron's 412s seem to be under utilized. There is atleast 6-7 high performance rotary aircrafts dedicated to VVIPS. (4nos. of 412 delivered circa. 1986 and 2 nos. 412EP in 2000 and perhaps another one in 2003 (?)).
(granted the SLAF serial numbers for these aircrafts are not static),I have the following #s:
CH522
CH523
CH524
CH525
CH527
CH528
CH529
With the last three being the EP version.
I was hoping the older 412s would be converted to supplement the fixed maritime wing assets as ASW platforms. Working in tandem with the Beechcraft, they could provide a net that would deny free movement of the LTTE inshore craft as well (on paper).
Does the SL navy think the oceans belong to them and want first crack of everything...or maybe I am just biased :-) Maybe after the 'blue-on-blue' incident with the Mig-27, the SLAF has to wait for navy clearance?
thanks for your insight as usual :-)
Edited By - Eksath - 15 Feb 2007 15:37:16 GMT |
Saervek
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 16 Feb 2007 14:26:41 GMT Report for Abuse
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MiG-29C,
Apologies for the delay in getting back to you, I've been a bit busy. Thanks for the info, that's quite a long post!
On the AAA batteries, sorry I had been thinking that the SLAF had acquired an 57mm S-60 battery, so I was wondering (at the time) whether they'd opted for the PUAZO-6/60 FCD & SON-9/FIRE CAN FCR... Thanks though.
With the Shilka, I guess it would be overkill for the aircraft it would oppose, but really what I was thinking was that the AAA batteries don't really seem to be doing much, or at least I haven't heard of them being used recently... With something like a Shilka you could utilise it to provide suppressive fire, particularly while attacking FDLs and other tiger fixed positions when it's not used for anti-aircraft work. But anyway, I suppose the SLDF would know their requirements best.
Thanks for the info on the C-130s... That explains the mixed reporting on SLAF stock. About this;
Depends on which aircraft type your talking about..
Actually I was still talking about the C-130s at that time, rather that the F-7s or PAF F-16A/B... The reason for the question is that the local news placed a request for support on T-55 (MBT)/C-130 units going to Pakistan. I know they do things like propeller overhaul on the C-130 there, but I was wondering how much they can do, and how much they have to send to you...
With the Pakistani F-16s, how was depot overhaul done while Pakistan was under sanctions?
Thanks for the info on the T56-A-15/AE2100, F-7 in the A2G role & the TC2 info, no more questions there.
With the MiG-29/FC-1;
(slightly off topic) Just out of interest; do you know the fate of the Bangladeshi MiG-29 aircraft (i.e. how they are to be disposed of)? Also it is unclear if they are Fulcrum-A or Fulcrum-C, different Bangladeshis claim different things, would you be able to provide details?
(Back on topic) I agree completely that war between India and Sri Lanka is highly unlikely, but still the job of any Armed Force is to protect its country from external aggression. There are also a number of reasons why Indo-Lanka relations might sour, which I?m sure you are aware of.
I?m also in complete agreement with you that if the full might of the Indian Armed Forces were to be brought to bear against Sri Lanka, the Sri Lankan Armed Forces would be smashed. However I think the Indians also have a number of constraints on them. Besides the difficulty of invading an island, I doubt India could utilise the majority of their Armed Forces (excepting the Eastern Fleet) to invade Sri Lanka, since their principal threats (Pakistan & China) are in the north. This is not to suggest that either Pakistan or China will feel compelled to come to Sri Lanka?s rescue, but I couldn?t imagine the Indians risking the North, let alone their Kashmiri Holy Grail by diluting their strength there.
(Please see below) |
Saervek
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16 Feb 2007 14:30:36 GMT Report for Abuse
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Also, surely the goal of any Sri Lankan Commander would be to hold out long enough for a U.N. brokered ceasefire, while inflicting sufficient damage on the Indians to force them to accept said ceasefire. If so couldn?t strikes be mounted against Southern Air Command (airbases)? At present it possesses no combat aircraft, only Mi-17s, trainers & naval aviation assets (AFAIK). The closest interceptors appear to be in PUNE-LOHEGAON, SWAC. Other airbases are at distance. And sans air cover from SAC wouldn?t the Indian Navy?s advance be more difficult (another interesting question is the amount of sealift available especially without airborne operations from SAC).
Ideally, a strike on VISHAKAPATANAM would solve the problem of the Eastern Fleet, but I?m not holding my breath on that one. Strikes on other ports in Southern India would probably complicate any Indian seaborne invasion, for obvious reasons. Obviously putting together something like the above is well out of reach of the contemporary SLAF, but after the present war is over, surely by converting the Army to a small professional force, supplemented by a large number of rapidly mobilizable reserves in a time of war, enough funding could be made available and such strike capability could be built up over time.
I have no complaints against the FC-1 (and I see what you mean about maintenance), it?s just that since the SLAF will never be able to match India quantitatively, they should at least try to match them qualitatively, especially since India is unlikely to throw its full might against Sri Lanka. Ultimately, as you said it comes down to the role that the Air Force sees itself playing after the eelam wars. But really, isn?t the present fleet/type of aircraft in service more than adequate if the goal is just internal security? Does the SLAF really require a $15 million aircraft if it has no intention of performing the external security role?
On Indian A/D, correct me if I?m wrong, but some time ago (I?m not sure if this has changed) the Indian air defence network was a network of radars, backed up by base-level air defences consisting of S-125 launchers, Igla?s and anti-aircraft artillery. I assume that the S-300 launchers are mostly in the north for ABM work. I also assume the 9K33 Osa launchers are deployed in the north, and that SAM systems deployed by the Indian Army are most likely to be deployed for the defence of army formations and again mostly in the North. Also I believe the Indian radar network is better in the North than it is in the South, and I assume that this goes equally in terms of base air defences. No doubt the above is a very capable air defence network, but surely a reasonably well directed SEAD strike coming from an unexpected direction (South) would have a decent chance of penetrating it? The PAF I believe tried something similar in one of their wars, but had a much more difficult task due to the heavily defended airspace of the North. |
Dinuk
Joined: Oct 2006
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 17 Feb 2007 06:45:04 GMT Report for Abuse
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Saervek,
What a detailed post that is :). since we are an island nation, in most cases i think we should modernized our navy to a blue water navy. including very good maritime strike- survailence unit (With the luxury of an air wing) we should moved on from this coast guard role. even after the LTTE threats eliminated country needs its defensive tasks to be carry on. it's true that our armed forces are small in number. but we manged to do things with very less Equipments. and we've proved it!
don't we?
cheers,
Edited By - Dinuk - 17 Feb 2007 06:47:04 GMT |
ThinKing
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17 Feb 2007 11:32:32 GMT Report for Abuse
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Saervek,
while inflicting sufficient damage on the Indians to force them to accept said ceasefire
How about a detailed plan for eliminating LTTE threat mate? ;) |
Saervek
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17 Feb 2007 14:19:52 GMT Report for Abuse
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ThinKing,
How about a detailed plan for eliminating LTTE threat mate? ;)
Hahahaha no mate basically I just wanted to ask MiG-29C why the SLAF wants an moderately expensive A/C if they aren't going to use it against a real threat... If they are just want to defend against JVP Uprising 2010 or Eelam War 2020 then maybe we could just use our existing craft or something at a similar cost instead since it would be cheaper...
Singapore is a nice example as usual... although they are dwarfed by the states around them, you'd still give them expect them to give a good account of themselves. They also prioritized building a defence-industrial complex - even by the 1970s ('74 I think) they were selling us patrol boats. Even today as MiG-29C pointed out they do work on some Air Force assets. We could have done it ourselves if the Governments since Independence had have promoted it.
Su33,
Do you have any idea what that canon which is fitted onto that waterjet is in Greyfox's article?
Sorry not sure. The standard IPCs use a single barrel 12.7mm weapon I believe... The pic shows a twin-barrel weapon but it's too small for me to tell, maybe someone else would know...
I believe the Typhoon comes with its own FC suite. From what I recall I think the mount itself has day/night capability through a thermal imager/CCD Camera located on the mount, and you can use this to generate an independent firing solution through the fire control computer. I would assume that any FAC featuring the Typhoon would have this capability since the sights are on-mount... I too doubt the ltte has much beyond manual fire control although some units might have stabilization? That's a guess though based on something I saw in a photo - Not sure.
Dinuk,
Agreed buddy, a nice navy would be a definite asset... I agree with you, once the ltte is defeated then we should attempt to create a defence force which at least has a chance of protecting the country... We've never really had anything like that since independence, another reason why we are still fighting this war. |
Su33
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 17 Feb 2007 21:35:31 GMT Report for Abuse
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Saervek,
I believe the Typhoon comes with its own FC suite. From what I recall I think the mount itself has day/night capability through a thermal imager/CCD Camera located on the mount, and you can use this to generate an independent firing solution through the fire control computer.
Probably you are right. But I've seen through videos released by the SLN to celebrate 53rd Anniversary where a sailor is manning a Typhoon G mounted canon. Meaning not all enjoy the FC suite for reasons unknown. Check those videos out on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=jasonsociety
He has uploaded 5 videos in total :-) Enjoy. The poems are lovely by the way. Admiral Weerasekara is quite talented I should say. |
Saervek
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18 Feb 2007 10:52:27 GMT Report for Abuse
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Su33,
I think the Typhoon mount + mounted cannon can be fired in manual mode as well... Maybe that's what you saw. You can tell pretty easily because as I recall the sight is usually mounted to the right of the cannon (if standing behind the G mount), just look for something with a lens... So if it doesn't have that, then your probably right. Otherwise maybe since it was (I assume) just a promo vid they thought having a sailor behind the gun was appropriate or something... Unfortunately I'm having some problem with Youtube, and I can't see the videos...
ThinKing,
Hahahaha sure mate...
I should be clear to you and MiG-29C.... I'm not advocating picking a fight with India... we probably have much more to gain from being friends with India than we do with being their enemies, it's just that if the worst happens, it would be nice if we made some preparations and had a hope of surviving an invasion (which is not expected to be easy!). Also a lot of countries seem to get a lot out of building a defence-industrial complex... It would probably have a beneficial effect on bringing more R&D to the country. We have been cursed since independence with a preference to import industrial goods from elsewhere rather than building them ourselves. |
ThinKing
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18 Feb 2007 13:05:30 GMT Report for Abuse
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Saervek ,
We have been cursed since independence with a preference to import industrial goods from elsewhere rather than building them ourselves.
Absolutely true mate. I think Sri Lanka must be the only country n the world where there was a long running war which had no local defence industry(development or manufacture) :D
But I'm not sure if Mig29C would appreciate you advocating that line of thinking though ;) |
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