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Kfir mishap averted
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Su33
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 17 Jan 2007 14:30:38 GMT Report for Abuse
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Saervek,
The reason SLA/SLAF are seeking ATGMs is not to bust LTTE armour or tanks. These are to my knowledge to be used as anti-structure munition. Which is why we see SLA special forces carry LAWs. Speaking of the Ataka the AT-9 spiral's 9M120 variant comes as a tandem HEAT warhead while the 9M120F variant comes with thermobaric capability. Such HEAT and thermobaric capability is well suited in my opinion to bring down a LTTE bunker with ease.
Its the same case with MILAN ATGMs in SLA's shopping list which was sent to Pakistan many months ago. During the Falklands war the British used it extensively to bust Argentine bunkers not tanks if I am correct. When it comes to LTTE bunkers, quite the structures they are. I've seen plenty of busted LTTE bunkers through frontline 3.2MB pics and the thickness of the concrete is quite surprising. :-O
So if the MI24 has the ability to carry the Atakas (like saervek says) why aren't they doing so with SLAF? A radar guided Ataka towards a Muraj boat (or even a miss at close proximity) would be devastating wouldn't it? |
SenaM
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 18 Jan 2007 03:50:01 GMT Report for Abuse
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Computerised Target Presentation .. for better gunnery, as well as 'bomb-drop' .. is now seen as of 'prime importance' for a CAS aircraft. There are a number of 'packages' available .. these are not 'rare' in this day and age . You need sensors, cue-ing in necessary data (air-speed, acceleration, range .. and possibly some others for 'bomb-dropping') .. and a dedicated computer to 'read' the data, on a continuous basis, and present the 'target', for the pilot to 'engage'. (Target 'presented' is 'off' bore-sight as required - to compensate for as many factors as can be 'taken to account' by the weapon-aiming computer).
Such a 'package' is what is needed to 'up-date' the Pucara .. and it would seem this is what the Argentinians are planning to do with their 60 odd IA58s (Pucaras). I would expect the 'avionics' fit they have in mind includes an anti-SAM suite as well.
It is still a good 'mount' .. understand a very responsive and 'delight-ful' aircraft to fly - as befits an aircraft coming off the drawing-board of Dr Kurt Tank, of Focke-Wulf fame. You need a relatively slow, and highly manoeuvrable aircraft .. with bullet, and SAM 'proofing', and dual redundancies .. most of which are found in the Pucara. There is still some 'life' in the 'old bird' .. Argentinians seem to be in agreement. |
Eksath
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 18 Jan 2007 05:08:54 GMT Report for Abuse
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SenaM,
As a fixed wing pilot who got my first rating on low and slow props, i am biased towards classical designs. But, i would still not go to war in a Spitfire or a FW-190 because the modern battlefield would chew me up.
When the shooting match starts and I need to be in the weeds chasing my targets, i would like to be able to use the terrain to my maximum effect. I could be far more effective and safe in a rotary wing aircraft and not be caught in between high and low altitude and an easy target.
Some points to ponder
1) The Pucura is not coming back to SLAF service PERIOD. Spares were very difficult to come by during its service life AND the SLAF has moved on with far more potent weapons delivery platforms than early '90s (Mi-24/35,Kfir C.2,Kfir C.7, Mig 27). The Pucura replaced SF-260 Warriors as COIN aircraft and that WAS a step up.
2) There is a reason that only 20 frames were sold outside Argentina (Uruguay, Sri Lanka and Colombia) ..there may be another North African country (but i don't remember if the deal went down). In reference, other successful aircraft have been exported in their hundreds far and wide.For example Brazil Embraer's Tucano (i chose an example from a fellow South American country to show that even Western countries would embrace a SUCCESSFUL South American aircraft).
3) The Pucura was made by the Argentinian Government Weapons Factory hence the Argentinian Armed Forces WERE going to get them even if they sucked. I understand there may -40 in storage because no-one wanted them. It was a national pride project. The Argentine economy has been in very poor state in the past few years and their armed forces are in no capacity to purchase new foreign aircraft. The best they could do is pay for upgrades to existing airframes with the double benefit of providing local employment in a troubled economy and maintaining valuable technical skills.
4) The hardware is only as good as the operator skills AND intelligence provided for target acquisition.
Just my 2cents.
Peace. :-)
Edited By - Eksath - 18 Jan 2007 05:11:08 GMT |
Saervek
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 18 Jan 2007 09:08:46 GMT Report for Abuse
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Su33,
Sure your right we could use them against ltte fortifications, but I'd question whether the Air Force has fully thought that out. The Navy has already worked out (after they bought the ships) that it's not economical to actually fire the missiles, and I suspect something similar might happen here...
If they do use it though, they could probably just opt for the thermobaric version, the main advantage of the tandem charge is that it's supposed to clear any ERA tiles at the hit location first, before the second charge attempts to penetrate the armour, and I don't think anyone in SL uses ERA...
Well with the Mi-24, it's the VM variant which caries the newer missiles and Iglas, I think our newest variants are the Mi-24V and Mi-35P. From what I know the Mi-24VM features several upgrades to its electronics, airframe etc, so it might be necessary to give our Mi-24s a partial upgrade before they can carry the missile...
I think the Ataka is guided using SACLOS by radio-link, I don't think the missile is beam-riding. Again with the Murajs, it might be what the SLN discovered, that using Gabriel anti-shipping missiles isn't cost effective against such boats (that and the fact that the SLN FMVs broke down). |
Su33
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18 Jan 2007 12:04:12 GMT Report for Abuse
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Saervek,
Good points. So then our Gunships aren't capable of carrying Atakas? mmmmmm thanks Saervek :-)
I am just looking at CAS options. because I remember Mr. Mig29 saying some time ago that CAS roles will be taken on by MIG27s and MI24/35ps in the future. He also said MI24s will be soon using a special weapon inducted into them. Any idea what that was? Was it Air-to-air capability?
That's why I brought up the Ataka issue and the Muraj issue so that our gunships could blow up the Murajs with less risk. In addition since LTTE flotillas move quite close to each other shielding their homicide boats, one hit at a Muraj may kill a whole bunch don't you think Saervek?
Although SLN got the FMVs I had no idea the package included Harpoons or Gabriels. If they did I am 100% certain they could have fired them at MV Soshin in 2003. MV Soshin was a 600 tonne deadweight cargo ship hence cost matter does not arise as against a home made Muraj. SLNS Nandimithra was involved in that particular operation and it did not fire. It was gun fire from FGBs Udara and Ranajaya that sank MV Soshin.
Point - the FMVs just came with its guns and were used as OPVs. I 100% dont think they came with missiles.
On another note, I heard a piece of news that SLN are on the verge of procuring 'heavy FACs'. Any idea what they might be Saervek?
Edited By - Su33 - 18 Jan 2007 12:28:05 GMT |
Saervek
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18 Jan 2007 14:43:35 GMT Report for Abuse
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Su33,
Umm I believe MiG-29C mentioned that the SLAF were fixing Matra Magic R550 AAMs onto the Hinds yes so thats probably what your thinking of.
I certainly say that targeting the suicide boats with missiles, while economically unfeasible perhaps makes a great deal of tactical sense; most of the ltte kills go to those, their standard boats aren't as much of a threat. I hope the SLN considers the Typhoon NTD mount for its newer FACs, as missiles go, the Spike is said to be fairly cheap...
My understanding is that the SLN took delivery of 16 Gabriel Mk. II Anti-Ship Missiles in 2000. That might be incorrect, but I suspect the reason they never fired the missiles is that it is too expensive to replace them. As far as ltte merchant vessels go there are a couple of problems.
1.) It's a merchantman, so it can't outrun naval vessels; it wouldn't be necessary to expend a missile on it, just finish it off with guns.
2.) Although you could technically fire a Gabriel Mk. II at around 36km away, you can't really fire first and ask questions later with a merchantman, even an illegal one. We'd earn a poor reputation if we sank the ships without warning shots etc, at which point its easier to finsh the job with guns.
The heavy FACs... I couldn't say. Also usually the local media tend to confuse/invent military nomenclature on a routine basis, a classic example being where they invented the 'mine blocker'. Their concept of a HFAC could accordingly mean anything, but if i were to nominate something I'd say something along these lines;
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/mirage_boat/
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/mirage_boat/specs.html
The Specs don't include it but that craft includes a Shturm missile complex. The SL Armed Forces seem to have a singular disregard for Air Defense, so they'll probably delete the Iglas if they were to choose something like this. Hope thats useful...
Edited By - Saervek - 19 Jan 2007 02:00:26 GMT |
Saervek
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19 Jan 2007 13:18:24 GMT Report for Abuse
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| Looks like Vakarai has fallen... Ampara is probably close behind... |
Su33
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19 Jan 2007 13:32:37 GMT Report for Abuse
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Saervek,
On the earlier post, its my bad. AT-6 Spiral etc are indeed radio guided not radar guided as I previously thought. Thanks!
So its the air-to-air capability Our gunships got? fair enough. You never know when those buggers attempt to land a harakiri plane on Sayura or Samudura lol
My point on blowing murajes is, if one missile makes one hit on a muraj it will blow up a whole cluster since highly explosive laden homicide ram boats too usually stay close to these muraj boats. Meaning the explosives from both the missile and the homicide boat(s) will act in unison to blow up the flotilla. Once the homicide boat is close enough in its perception to accelerate and ram the FAC only the flotilla brakes up.
I never heard SLN got 16 Gabriels. If they are not using it, then why the hell did they go for it? Its more like finding a whole load of unused chaffs and flares in the wreck of shot down helicopter gunship! Like someone early on in this thread said SLN seems to have misplaced their priorities. No wonder they are at the bottom of the shopping list while the other two arms - SLA and SLAF - have acquired millions worth of equipment during the last year alone.
But again SLN knows best. So far they've done us all proud. If not for the human missiles, of course, the LTTE fishermen have no chance against the FACs. My sincere hope is our boys get the much needed 30mm canon with the fire control system the MKII Super Dvora enjoys. And what is the Spike you mention Saervek? Another link perhaps? :-)
So you reckon SLN are opting for Mirages saervek? I have no idea what those are. WIll check out your links when time permits.
Anyways vaharai is ours eh? About time. Next is Kathirveli and Verugal yey! |
Saervek
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19 Jan 2007 14:48:32 GMT Report for Abuse
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Su33,
Lol... Divebombing the SLN in Z-143s...
I think some of the other planes have a modest A2A capability as well, mostly PL-2s and PL-5s...
Umm yup it might just work and sink/damage some escorting Murajs, but really just eliminating the suicide boat is enough, that really is what troubles the SLN. It's hard to combat someone who has absolutely no regard for their own life.
Lol... I think I was the one complaining about SLN purchases earlier... On the Gabriel's, here is a SIPRI link on it;
www.sipri.org/contents/armstrad/REG_EXP_ISR_95-05.pdf
(That's a list of Israeli arms transfers, you'll find us way down the bottom at 'S').
Umm the Spike is an AT missile which can (also) be mounted on ships and helos... The naval version utilises the Typhoon NTD/GS mount, so if the Navy wants to continue with the Typhoons and use missiles, they could switch from the G mount to the GS (besides switching cannons). Personally I'd opt for at least a couple having the GSA mount but then I have a thing for air defence. If they do want the missiles, they should standardise with the Air Force on their helos...
Spike
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/anti-armor/n-td/N-TD.html
Typhoon
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/naval/typhoon/Typhoon.html
:)
Umm someone correct me if I'm wrong but the Shaldags and Dvoras in SLN should already come with fairly substantial fire control, either in the form of the Typhoon's own CMS suite or slaved to external FC from the Dvora/Shaldag itself, unless the SLN opted for inferior electronics on purchase?
On the Mirages, nah I don't know if that's what they are actually planning on getting, but that sort of boat is I think what they mean when they say HFAC. The SLN seems to have some sort of paranoia about Russian equipment, so they'll probably look elsewhere... |
CannonFodder
Joined: Mar 2005
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24 Jan 2007 15:12:27 GMT Report for Abuse
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Mig29C;
Do you have other blogs/sites on SL situation that are open to public. If you publish the links it will spare you from rewriting the same. Hope you find some time to share you analysis with us. |
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