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Kfir mishap averted
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Sandman
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 16 Dec 2006 20:47:50 GMT Report for Abuse
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Eela
It is a combination of all the factors, including but not limited to Karuna's defection, the SLAs new level of preparation and commitment, leadership skills, better equipment, strategy, mobility and intelligence..
It is also a result of the ground realities in dissent among tamil civillians who have tasted peace dividends for a while, and direct and indirect military and material assistance the SL forces benefit from.
What I would like to see is a coherant strategy arising out of all this to seperate tamil people's legitimate political ambitions from tiger terror and address them in a dignified and sustainable way, which does not open the 'national security considerations' wound all over again.
Wars are never won by technology alone. It is dominated by the people factor, as it always was.
Edited By - Sandman - 16 Dec 2006 20:49:03 GMT |
GreyFox
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17 Dec 2006 16:43:55 GMT Report for Abuse
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B2spirit
You are wrong. The weight of the Ogon system and the additional rockets will slow down the FACs down a fair bit. A Dvora or a Shaldaq does not such a heavy weapons system installed, a 30mm cannon will be plenty. |
Saervek
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 18 Dec 2006 01:41:52 GMT Report for Abuse
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Mig-29C,
Thanks for your info, greatly appreciated. Thanks for the clarification on the FAB/KAB-500, I had read somewhere that the KAB was essentially a FAB mated to a TV-seeker and guidance fins in the KR version or a laser (and fins) in the L variant, which is why I assumed you could convert the unguided munition to a guided one by adding the required elements.
Merry Christmas to you too, and have a safe journey. |
Saervek
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18 Dec 2006 03:38:39 GMT Report for Abuse
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GreyFox,
Actually I meant 40kts as an upper limit, to cover the 30-40kt range. In our application, speed is necessary because ideally, you'd want to stand off the ltte boats while engaging them at ranges where their weaponry cannot reply, and most importantly, to make it difficult for the suicide boats to close and engage. Part of the reasons for most warships slowing down is the increase in displacement, and the fact that basically once your able to engage someone at 100km with a missile, a few kts more or less doesn't make much difference. This isn't really true for us because the Navy prefers (for good reason) to engage with guns. It would be possible to build a fast small combatant though, indeed, the parent design of the Sayura, the Ulsan-class can hit around 35kts on her twin gas turbines. The technology is pretty well understood, and really has been around since WW2.
My actual point here is this:
1.) Our efforts should be to close this engagement with the ltte in around 2-3 years at most. Our weapons purchases and technology transfers should be designed with such a purpose in mind. If we are still fighting the ltte in 10 years time, long enough for the last of the (patrol)OPVs and indigenously designed IFVs to have rolled off the line, then there has been a dramatic failure of leadership, which has managed to utterly squander our gathering momentum. Dragging this conflict is in prabhakaran's interest, not ours.
2.) Weapons purchases particularly for the Air Force and Navy should be made in a manner that facilitates their ability fulfill their primary mission, which is to defend the Country from external aggression. The Armed Forces are not capable of doing this at present, and purchases of OPVs will not enable the Navy to do this in the future, unless at least they are designed in a manner to allow the later fitting of Surface-to-Air and Surface-to-Surface missile launchers (and ASW equipment).
3.)
Corvettes are also pretty expensive to operate compared to OPVs.
This isn't really true in what your proposing mate because what you've got is basically a vessel carrying the armament (minus missile launchers) and engines of a Corvette/Frigate but designated as an OPV. This isn't going to be significantly less costly to operate than a corvette which doesn't fire its missiles, which it might not against the ltte, but would be far more useful later on. |
SenaM
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 18 Dec 2006 09:38:38 GMT Report for Abuse
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To all those who are concerned with equipping the armed services, and progress of related programs - I wish to suggest that you have a look at the thread': 'Has Water Closed-in on Navy Probe Report ?'
Edited By - SenaM - 18 Dec 2006 11:52:17 GMT |
Saervek
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18 Dec 2006 14:07:32 GMT Report for Abuse
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SenaM,
Good info by the original poster, whoever it was. I had hoped that the Navy were considering upgrading to something like the Typhoon GS Gun Mount with the new cannon, the Spike-ER on that platform gives the Navy standoff capability (with a maximum range of around 8km) and is fairly cheap as missiles go at around $5000 per pop (cost would be version dependant, and thats an approximate value). Nice to have that confirmed, if and when the Navy does acquire it. They should consider equipping a couple of boats with the GSA mount instead, which would give them some point air-defense capability, never know when it might come in handy.
On the article itself, sometimes you have to wonder whether these journalists actually know what their talking about or even worse, distort the facts deliberately. This 'FACs shrinking' business is a good example. The exact length of a FAC can vary depending on the options selected along with the operational requirements of the buyer. You can't just rush to a conclusion that the FAC has shrunk without knowing what exactly the Navy ordered for the vessel. Also, randomly changing the length of a vessel (shrinking) requires redesign work, you can't just get out of bed tomorrow and decide 'well... I'd like my Dvora 3m shorter please'. I'm sure there is some corruption, but a lot of the examples presented do have different explanations. |
GreyFox
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18 Dec 2006 20:01:40 GMT Report for Abuse
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Saervek
First of all, my main aim is for our Navy to have better maritime surveillance at sea, and not warships that are geared towards fighting external aggression. We face no external aggression, so there is NO use in blowing lots of money to purchase vessels that will be little help to us in THIS CONFLICT(Case and point: The Saar 4 missile ships). Better maritime surveillance is a nightmare for the LTTE weapons supply lines, that's why our SLN wants OPVs and that's why the USA gifted us an OPV. This is the right path to take.
Most of the electronics inside a frigate or a corvette are geared towards fighting other naval warships and protect the ship from missiles, rockets and torpedoes. Most of the electronics inside an OPV are geared towards maritime surveillance. Many countries consider OPVs as warships cause they are very economical to use. Only richer countries use them for coastal guard duty only.
I said that if Lanka ever wants to make OPVs themselves, then they should try to build vessels that are about 55m-65m long(no heli-pad) instead of a Sayura-sized ship that is over 100m long. A smaller vessel will naturally be faster than a bigger vessel and my suggestions was to use a water jet propulsion similar to the system used in the fearless class patrol ships. I never proposed of fitting the engines of a Frigate/Corvette into an OPV.
My actual point here is:
1) A OPV with a decent cannon can easily shred an oncoming assault by LTTE boats and suicide boats. Even one minute is a long time in high speed naval combat. I know you and I disagree on this point. An OPV can easily pick up the oncoming LTTE threat from very far away.
2) I have a feeling that this war will go on for a long time and expecting to finish the war within 2-3 years is nothing short of wishful thinking. We had many wishful thinking leaders in the past and we don't need any more, time to face reality for all of us.
3) The LTTE are facing bans from many western countries, but I bet some money will still trickles through. And even if we do succeed in cutting all the money coming from the Tamil Diaspora living in western countries we must not forget about India. South India contains some of the richest states in all of India with the lowest poverty levels. On top of that the Indian economy is growing fast, that means that a new enormous middle-class will emerge is South India who can afford to fund the LTTE more than ever before. Ever wondered why Vaiko and his other South Indian buddies come out thumping their chests whenever the LTTE is getting hammered in war? Most of the South Indians in Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Andra Pradesh and Karnataka are always hearing the LTTE's side of the story and many there don't hold a favorable view about the SL govt. There is strong evidence indicating the existence of many covert weapons producing factories in South India that provide LTTE with ammo, artillery shells, rockets, mines, grenades etc.
4) OPVS are the best solution for effectively patrolling the Northern , Western and Eastern seas of Lanka, which will help in severing the umbilical cord the LTTE has with South India(which BTW goes far beyond just weapons supplies). If this Link is not cut, there will be no peace in Lanka. New Delhi won't do much in pressuring South India to give up its support due to a fear of a southern uprising.
I am not saying that all South Indians are LTTE supporters, but the majority of them don't even consider the LTTE a terrorist organization at all. The Southern States of India have a combined population close to 250 million . The SL Tamil Diaspora is only about 800,000 strong. See my point?
With all this said, I must add that with regards to this conflict with the terrorist LTTE, we must always look at the bigger picture. Only then can we destroy this terrorist menace called the LTTE.
Edited By - GreyFox - 22 Dec 2006 02:51:46 GMT |
boola
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24 Dec 2006 08:48:28 GMT Report for Abuse
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| Mr Mig where r u? Thanks for providing us vslusble info regarding military war crafts. hope to c you soon |
Saervek
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24 Dec 2006 16:23:29 GMT Report for Abuse
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GreyFox,
I fundamentally disagree. If foisting the entire terrorist problem on us does not count as an act of external aggression, I do not know what does. The fact of the matter is that successive Indian governments since Independence have treated us as an appendage of India. This matter would have been concluded in 1987 with prabha either dead or captured with Operation Liberation, if the Indian Government had not have intervened. We are still fighting this war due to the Indians, and we will continue to fight this war because of the Indians. If the Governments since Independence had not neglected national security, and deigned to build a defence force capable of defending this island, we would not be facing this terrorist problem today. You made the point yourself about the South Indians, although you didn't come to the same conclusion. As long as we attempt to make policy independent of Indian thinking, we will have to face Indian aggression. You only need look at India's extremely poor relations with all it's neighbours to realise that.
(In the above, the Indian people should not be confused with the Indian government. There is nothing wrong with Indians, it's just the Government which is obnoxious.)
Many countries consider OPVs as warships cause they are very economical to use. Only richer countries use them for coastal guard duty only.
Sure buddy, you can use them as warships, but just so long as you don't expect them to survive the encounter. In our scenario, our choices need to be capable enough to at least make the Indian Navy think twice, because they could wipe out our gun-armed OPVs before the OPVs even see who is firing. Protecting ourselves on the other hand is not that difficult, because 95% of the Indian resources are geared to protect the North from a multitude of threats (Pak, Bang, China, Burma). The Indian Air Force doesn't even have a presence (apart from a unit of Mi-8s/Mi-17s) anywhere near our air space. The Indians do not have many resources to spare on the Southern Theatre, it would not take much of a deterrent capability to be able to make the Indian Government think twice about giving orders. Just look at where we are at present, half the Government is in India at any given time explaining and justifying our decisions to the Indian Government. What an embarrassment.
my suggestions was to use a water jet propulsion similar to the system used in the fearless class patrol ships. I never proposed of fitting the engines of a Frigate/Corvette into an OPV.
Mate waterjets are just a propulsion system. It's basically just a replacement for a propeller. You still need engines driving those waterjets/propellers. That's why to make the speed of a Frigate, you still need the engines of a frigate.
The Shaldags for example use Deutz engines and Calzoni waterjets I believe, while the Dvoras can use either MTU or Deutz engines driving KaMeWa waterjets.
I'll be back in a week, catch you all then. |
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