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Kfir mishap averted
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SenaM
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Joined: Aug 2006
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LK Information  12 Dec 2006 16:28:49 GMT  Report for Abuse  
Snake 2
You'd be referring to Mortars, not Rockets .. should be fairly simple to produce.

Rockets too, should not be a problem. Understand Katyusha type rockets are produced by the Palestinians in home-workshops. So, why can't we ?

(Need to assemble this lot: War-head, Fuse/Primer, Propellant, and Casing. All of this can be purchased separately, in bulk. Guess, there'd be a saving of over 50% in assembly, as against buying the finished product from abroad. Worth remembering transport costs are also very high for this type item).
Biggles
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 65
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LK Information  12 Dec 2006 16:48:09 GMT  Report for Abuse  
Snaky Old Bean! Good to see you here. I got to see your Mosquito in the form of a Pucara... How many of these do you have old chap? 10?

Any news of that Mig 29 chap? He seems to make sense, but dropping big bombs only works if your MI is doing a good job. Plus, those Migs are expensive.

Your fly boys need many Mosquitoes... Ah, those were beauties. Not too hard to make and repair you know. Mostly a wooden body. I would armour plate the cockpit and engine vitals to be safe from heavy calibre guns below. Also mount 30mm guns or something like it and fly them over the enemy trenches. Build 100 of these and your enemy will find the daily losses too much to take. When we built them in the 1930s everyone laughed , but then the Mosquito even flew in the Israel. 400 mph is nothing to sneer at you know!

Yes, these are dangerous missions when you fly 'em low... so I would suggest an arc pattern that leaves the plane on a heading towards friendly territory on its straffing run--just in case they come down, they will do so in your trenches and not theirs. Or, the final straffing run can be done on the way back from behind enemy lines, after each Mosquito knocks off an enemy target in the interior.

If the situation is bad, even after getting the Mosquitoes hit ten times with their missiles, there will be 90 left. The missiles are difficult to get from the intl mkt, and the pressure to get more will expose their merchants even more. Nab 'em overseas then with cooperation from Interpol. Besides, you know in that market the players know each other. So new faces will not do as well.

Sun Tzu... He is an amazing old chap, that he is.

Maybe, you can get in touch with your flyboys, army and navy and tell 'em the whole world of true soldiers are sick of your enemy's tactics of homicide bombings and using artillary from where there are locals. No honour in that, even Jerry was better in his day.

Seems like your flyboys need some encouragement and a pat on the back. Back in my days, we lived to shoot Jerry down. We used to even lead the Lancs in raids over Germany.

Good luck old bean.

Biggles
GreyFox
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LK Information  12 Dec 2006 17:41:03 GMT  Report for Abuse  
Saervek

You claim that a frigate would be less vulnerable than an OPV in battle. This would be true if we are fighting the Indian navy warships. We are fighting LTTE boats and their suicide boats. Both a frigate and an adequately armed OPV can destroy sea tiger fiberglass boats with no problem. If the 101m long Sayura can clock at 21kts then a smaller OPV(55m-65m) can easily clock at 35kts with the right kind of engine.

The bottomline is that you and I disagree about the combat capability of an adequately armed OPV.

Lankan made Dvoras(UFAC) are four times cheaper than the imported Israeli versions. So building and replacing lost FACs are much easier on the budget than in the past.
GreyFox
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LK Information  12 Dec 2006 18:02:53 GMT  Report for Abuse  
Saervek

I should have been clearer on my idea of IFV manufacturing in Lanka. You are right we can?t and don?t have the technology to build a vehicle in the same class as a Stryker or BMP-3. What I am trying to say is that we can try to build a similar vehicle(low tech version) for our forces that can carry out routine patrols in the northern districts and engage in combat if attacked.

Building T-55 tanks in Lanka would be a little cheaper than the IFV project that I have in mind, but the T-55 has poor fuel economy compared to a much faster, lighter and mobile IFV and may not be needed to be produced in many numbers at all. I think our army only needs about 100 tanks in this conflict and even then they are used mainly in the battle front. Currently we have about 65 tanks. I want an IFV that runs on wheels and not on a chassis(like the BMP-3), wheels would be easier to maintain than a chassis for our forces.

In the end what I am trying to say is that I would like our R&D department to design a vehicle that can:
1)transport troops
2)patrol roads,towns, cities
3)fight in heavy combat situations and in urban enironments.
The only vehicles that can fit this role are the 'Stryker-like' vehicles. Which includes ones like the Mowag Piranha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mowag_Piranha
Edited By - GreyFox - 13 Dec 2006 18:02:11 GMT
GreyFox
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LK Information  12 Dec 2006 20:33:14 GMT  Report for Abuse  
Snake2

Its good to hear that we made some ammo back in the day. I do suspect that we still make some artillery ammo locally though.
Sandman
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LK Information  13 Dec 2006 05:26:18 GMT  Report for Abuse  
Greyfox

Did you know that the rebels in Chad beat the much greater Libyan (?) army with a bunch of Toyota pickups on which they mounted recoil-less rifles.

Maybe the terrain is different, but the higher mobility and lower heat signature of such a vehicle in close to intermediate quarters fighting definitely is advantageous.

You see, this war will never be won by superior fire-power. Primarily, it has to be a hearts and minds war (which this govt seems to sonsider expendable), and the military campaign has to possess superior soldiers with reliable weapons, rather than inferiors with super-weapons.
Edited By - Sandman - 13 Dec 2006 05:27:05 GMT
Nightfox78
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LK Information  13 Dec 2006 09:25:06 GMT  Report for Abuse  
an interesting article.. relevent to this discussion

http://www.sibernews.com/news/sri-lanka/-200612137120/
Edited By - Nightfox78 - 13 Dec 2006 14:44:54 GMT
Mig-29C
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 543
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LK Information  13 Dec 2006 09:29:30 GMT  Report for Abuse  
Good day everyone..

In reply to:

Mr.b2spirit
But apart from that what would be the impact of using the cannon against ground targets. What are the pros and cons of using such a weapon against the LTTE?


In combination with its S-17VG sighting system the GSh-6-30 is a very accurate weapon. You can fire the cannon in manual and automatic modes. In manual mode - 'approximate' targeting is done using the fixed grid on the S-17VG sight. In automatic aiming mode - the PrNK-23 integrated nav/attack system is used, it gives the necessary corrections and lead on an S-17VG sight together with information about the target and effective firing range. When detonating on impact with the ground, the shell fragments can scatter up to 200 metres in all directions. In short 40-round bursts, lasting a fraction of a second, the gun sends to the target an 'effective load' of about 20 kg at extremely high velocity.

This cannon is lethal when used in close quarter combat - a MiG-27M flying at round 300-500 ft can with great ease and accuracy engage boats, troop transports, mortar locations and combat troops.

The downside is the limited quantity of ammunition available on the aircraft - at best the aircraft is capable of 6 or 8 low-level passes. Since the aircraft always operate in pairs, with a well synchronised low-level attack pass the aircrafts are capable of inundating a target with enough firepower to effectively obliterate a large area.

An important point that has to be stressed again and again is that SLAF operations in Sri Lankan rarely used about a 1/3 or the aircrafts actual capabilities. In short this aircraft has much more to offer and deliver .. watch and wait.


Mr.eelanathan
had the SLA been using Fuel Air mine clearing tactics in Northern Sri Lanka so far? especially in Muhamallai and Pooneryn sector.


As far as I know the SLAF has never used any FAM's in the northern theatre.. this situation might change in the future..

Do you think this tactics had a substantail effect on the liberation of sampur areas?


The information I had at the time indicated that the weapon was used on a cluster of armed thamil tiger reinforcements .. the weapon successfully achieved its mission objective.. the results were quite spectacular..

However I do not think this singular event had an immediate direct effect on the eventual outcome of the operation.. but it and other successive strikes had a cumulative effect in speeding up the final result.


Mr.rataperata
According to your prev post .. now SLAF Jet fleet stand as

10 kfirs .. (excluding the 2 TCs and the one which lost it will be 8 fighters 2 C7s & 6 C2s)
8 Migs ( excluding the UB23 plus the new 4 arrivals it will be 7 fighters )

15 operational fighters .. hope im correct here ..


correct.. however in most operational circumstances I've been informed that the SLAF has about 3 or 4 combat ready Kfir C.2's + C.7's at any given time and, about 4 MiG's from the 6 it had in 2000.

So on any given day during 2000 the SLAF had from about 6-8 combat ready aircraft.

This would most probably be the same today.

1. What happened to those 3 Mig27M we had earlier (CF737, CF735, CF731) are they already Upgraded or serviced .???


The information I had at the time suggested that the Aircraft were pending intermediate level repairs .. it appears this has now changed to a full blown depot level overhaul .. From what I can tell the airframes need some minor structural repairs.. this overhaul should be mainly for the engines and the PrNK-23 integrated nav/attack system. Might take another couple of months before these aircraft return to service.

There is no upgrade planned for any of the aircrafts systems that I know of..

2. What actually SLAF going to do with the rest of the Kfir C2 fleet I think we got 6 C2's. are they going to upgrade those to C7???


The C.2's will stay on along with the 2 x C.7's .. I believe the SLAF will maintain this Hi Lo mix till this conflict reaches a conclusion.

When it come to upgrade fighter from a one version to anther how exactly its been done ..??


This is quite a broad topic, but in a nutshell:

The aircraft is stripped of its primary/secondary and tertiary systems. The wings/Fin and tailplane are disconnected from the fuselage. These primary structures are inspected for an assortment of damage mechanisms, stress fractures, material fatigue, corrosion .. etc. If any of the structural components in these primary structures need replacing this is done.

If the upgrade is purely a systems upgrade - the new systems are included and the aircraft reassembled.

If the upgrade requires a new power-plant, further enhancements need to be made to flight control software and other related systems.

The list goes on depending on the complexity of the upgrade. However an upgrade will not usually entail any major modifications to the actual design. Completely redesigned wings/fin are very rare. For example the upgrade from Kfir C.1 to C.2 was a major programme that entailed detailed wind tunnel tests to examine the effect of the new canards amongst others.

If you want more detail - I will specifically write a separate addendum to this brief..

I know in most cases it's the Avionics that upgrade cause the airframe stays same ( unless Kfir C10 .. which got long Nose .. and In-flight Fuel gage ..) . and normally where they do it ??..


The IAI Lahav facility in Israel.

do we have to send theses fighter back to IAI to get upgraded ..??
and how long will it take for upgrade ..??
why cant we do it in SL..??
and for Kfirs to upgrade from C2 to C7 how much will it cost .. is it worth ..


*Yes.
*A couple of months (around 5-6).
*Sri Lanka does not have the infrastructure or the experience to carry this out .. again this is quite a broad subject, if you want more detail let me know.
*It will roughly cost around $2 million - depends on what the aircraft is going to be used for. The SLAF currently doesn't use the C.7 any differently to the C.2. In my estimation this upgrade will not be necessary considering that the SLAF has MiG-27M's.

Hope this helps.


Mr.Saervek
Secondly, would you be able to enlighten us on some of the local munitions manufacture? Specifically SLAF I suppose, although info on the other services would be welcome if you can give it. I've heard of manufacture of some of the 57mm rockets used on the Hinds, and some GPBs.


I will answer this question the best way I can:

From what I know the SLAF did locally manufacture the bomb bodies - The bomb body is the casing containing the explosive material - for the Mk81 and Mk82 in Sri Lanka. The tail kits and the fuzing mechanism's were imported from what I can remember. The complete unit was assembled in Sri Lanka. I am not aware of the current state of this production line.

I haven't got much information about the 57mm rockets.

To be honest my intel on local munitions manufacture is rather limited. I will try and find out more on a later date and get back to you in the new year :o)

Do you know whether the Paveway's are allowed for export (to SL)? Because if so I imagine the SLAF could mate any locally produced Mk. 80-type bombs to the Paveway kit, as required (provided of course they manufacture the right bombs).


There are no restrictions in place for the sale of Paveway kits to Sri Lanka. If and when the SLAF does acquire this kit - then yes it can be mounted on any locally manufactured to specification Mk81 or Mk82.

I imagine the same conversion could be carried out to convert FAB-500s to KAB-500s, if they can get the (Russian) kit (and if they make the bomb).


The FAB-500 and the KAB-500 are two completely different munition types. The KAB-500 is not a kit, it's a complete system. Basically you cannot upgrade a FAB-500 to a KAB-500, apart from the similar sounding designations these are two completely different weapons.

One last question, do you know whether the Corps of Artillery uses extended range munitions?


Again .. I do not have this information at hand at this moment .. will have to get back to you on this.

Hope this helps.


Mr.Su33
What is the usual blast radius of a MK series 500 pound dumbbomb? Can its shrapnel really travel some 500 meters from its impact site? (As reported in tamilnet regarding alleged kilinochchi hospital bombing).


To answer this I need to explain the mechanics of a munition explosion upon ground impact.

The Blast is caused by tremendous dynamic overpressures generated by the detonation of a high explosive. Complete (high order) detonation of high-explosives can generate pressures up to 700 tons per square inch and temperatures in the range of 3,000 to 4,500 degC prior to bomb case fragmentation.

Approximately half of the total energy generated will be used in swelling the bomb casing to 1.5 times its normal size prior to fragmenting and then imparting velocity to those fragments. The remainder of this energy is expended in compression of the air surrounding the bomb and is responsible for the blast effect. This effect is most desirable for attacking walls, collapsing roofs, and destroying or damaging machinery. The effect of blast on personnel is confined to a relatively short distance (110 feet for a 2000 lb bomb).

For surface targets blast is maximized by using a general purpose bomb with an instantaneous fuzing system that will produce a surface burst with little or no confinement of the overpressures generated by excessive burial. For buildings or bunkers the use of a delayed fuzing system allows the blast to occur within the structure maximizing the damage caused by the explosion.

Fragmentation is caused by the break-up of the weapon casing upon detonation. Fragments of a bomb case can achieve velocities from 3,000 to 11,000 ft/sec depending on the type of bomb (GP bomb fragments have velocities of 5,000 to 9,000 ft/sec). Fragmentation is effective against troops, vehicles, aircraft and other soft targets.

The fragmentation effects generated from the detonation of a high-explosive bomb have greater effective range than blast, usually up to approximately 2000-3000 feet regardless of bomb size.

So in short - yes it is possible for fragments of a Mk-83 to travel around 500m in an open area explosion. However, in an environment that has a lot of dense foliage you rarely get shrapnel travelling that far, maybe around 200m.

Hope this helps.


Mr.Dinuk
Do you Know the Variant of MIG 27 we are getting now? is it MIG 27K variant??


The aircraft are MiG-27M's ..

Note - these aircraft are actually MiG-23BM (later MiG-27) Flogger-D aircraft upgraded to the M standard, Flogger-J - the soviet designation is MiG-27D Flogger-J. However, these aircraft are commonly referred to as MiG-27M Flogger-J's. Externally and in terms of the major offensive/defensive systems the MiG-27D and MiG-27M are indistinguishable. However one difference is their inertial navigation systems - the MiG-27Ms assembled at the Ulan Ude site use the RSBN 'course' inertial navigation system whilst the MiG-27D's from the Irkutsk site upgraded to the M standard use the RSDN land inertial navigation system. For all intents and purposes they are the same aircraft, they have the same capabilities.

Hope this helps.


**********

Just wanted to say that I will not be around from now till the new year, reason being that I will actually be in your country for the next 2 weeks on business. Unfortunately I cant tell you why :o).

I will be in India for couple days in January then Ukraine .. will be returning state side around the 10 Jan.

Will come back in the new year and answer any outstanding comments.

Take care everyone

Have a Merry Christmas and New Year..
Edited By - Mig-29C - 11 Feb 2007 12:23:24 GMT
Mig-29C
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 543
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LK Information  13 Dec 2006 12:28:01 GMT  Report for Abuse  
To all the Sri Lankans..

It is good to see that several of you have taken an interest in your countries armed forces.

I could make a suggestion here.. by having constructive debates in this thread about tactics/equipment, at the end of it one of you or a group of you could prepare a briefing paper about some of these issues pertaining to the SLAF/SLN and SLA and send it over to your countries Ministry of Defence.

There is no harm in such an endeavour if all of you are really concerned about the situation in your country and want to help.

Feel free to use any of the information I have provided in this forum.

Just an idea..

Take care and Goodbye till 2007 .. Pray for peace
Edited By - Mig-29C - 13 Dec 2006 13:22:19 GMT
Su33
Joined: Dec 2006
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LK Information  13 Dec 2006 15:53:08 GMT  Report for Abuse  
Thanks much for sharing your knowledge with us here Mr. Mig29C. And seeing you address me as Mr, actually it should be Miss :-). yeah I know its weird for a girl to be interested in boy stuff.

As we speak 'Operation Vaharai' is drawing to a conclusion. Tamil propaganda machinery is quiet giving precedence over a road mishap LOL. Also I believe SLAF took out the only 152mm gun the LTTE had in the East just yesterday. Once again I assume its the synergy between SIGINT and Kfirs.

Another question to you if you don't mind...

After reading your comments on the MIG27's GSh-6-30 gun's automatic modes - does it mean it acquires movig targets and automatically locks onto them? If so does the MI24s gun (whatever it is) do the same using its ComPass? I know its rockets are unguided though.

Thanks much! and have a nice time in Sri Lanka. And.....Merry Chirstmas and a Happy Newyear!
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