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Hindus set to convert to Buddhism
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GamaRaala
Joined: Apr 2005
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26 Oct 2006 00:44:11 GMT Report for Abuse
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Mucha,
Are Sinhalese and Tamils 'NATIVE RACES' of Australia?
There must be tens of thousands of 'Sinhalese' and 'Tamil' chldren born in Australia whose ancestors originally arrived from Sri Lanka and Tamil Nadu. |
Mucha-linda
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26 Oct 2006 05:26:13 GMT Report for Abuse
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LULA,
There is no point going through same arguments again and again with you. I cannot wake up anyone who pretends sleeping. As such, let me give you a general reply (instead of a detailed one), addressing only the points worth commenting on.
* Mistaken Identity and the Coromandel Factor:
First, let me remind you that the Tamils are from the Coromandal coast and their dialect is Tamil, where as the Malabars are from the Malabar Coast and their dialect is Malayalam. Let me also remind you that the religious beliefs, culture and language of Tamils and Malabars are somewhat different.
First of all, let me thank you for pulling this string. Last time, it was over the size of Coromandel and hope you have no plans to drag this over to the same fate, now over the size of Malabar.
Lula, Coromandel is from where the Tamils were taken in as slave labour. But, Tamils also came here as migrants from many other parts of India mostly under the auspice of Colonialists during the late centuries. Malayalam speaking Malabars too came here during the times of European rule. It was these Malabars whom were called Malabars by Europeans and not a hypothetical native population that lived in Jaffnapatnam.
As such, if you think that Europeans called long standing inhabitants of Jaffnapatnam as Malabars due to a mistaken identity, it shows nothing but your naivety. The fact is there were considerable amount of recently migrated Malabars in Jaffnapatnam at the time, and they lived as Malabars, in addition to those Coromandels who were taken there as slave labour. It is this which made Europeans to call inhabitants of Jaffnapatnam all those names with no reservations. I am not saying that there were no Tamils with other origins in Jaffna at the time. But they never accounted to a considerable majority.
The other fact is, those inhabitants of Jaffnapatnam never had their own identity. As such, it is not that recently migrated Malabars and Coromandels assimilated into a Jaffna Tamil identity that existed before their arrival, but the Jaffna Tamil Identity was born out of those identities (if there is any such identity, which I doubt). In a way, this is more about LACK OF IDENTITY than a MISTAKEN IDENTITY. It is under this context what Capt. Robert Percival said about the large number of Foreigners living in Jaffna should be understood. It is also under this context what people like Robert Knox and Predikant Philippus Baldaeus should be understood.
If you ever wonder how those Malayalam speaking Malabars became Tamils, let me explain that too. There was not much difference between the Malayalam spoken in 1700s to the Tamil spoken at the time not to mention the other similarities in their respective cultures. After all, it was during the 15 th century where Malayalam became something more than a dialect of Tamil. To date there are striking similarities between Malaylam and Tamil. It is these similarities that made those Malabars to become Tamils in later years. Do not forget that there is a considerable number of Malayalese (and Telugus) among the Estate labour population to date, even though all of them are now considered themselves as Tamils. What happened in Jaffnapatnam during the later periods of Colonial Rule is exactly that.
If you still have any issues relating to how Malayali speaking Malabars became Tamils, please also note that MG Ramachandran, the Tamil film star and the leader of AIADMK of Tamilnadu was born to Malayalee Parents of Sri Lanka.
* The other interesting thing I noticed in your latest reply is the way you have dissected my analogy.
Dear Lula, analogies are there to better understand other phenomenon and not to be rephrased or to be further dissected. Even if your attempted rephrase proves any point (which is not the case, anyway), what it all means is that the analogy I have chosen is poor , and not anything else. I have no intention to revisit my analogy by rephrasing it again. But who were called Malabars by Europeans are those who thought themselves Malabars.
* Nativity
If a group of natives(Sinhalese and Tamils) including Muchalinda settle down in a land area somewhere in Hambantota and adopt the Bengali language, culture and religion, will Muchalinda loose his native status here and become a native of Bengal?
Lula, no matter how much you try to rephrase this, it still lies outside the norm of Nativity, which I have already repeated several times. In the given situation, unfortunately to Muchalinda, he will never be entitled to become a Native since Nativity is not something based on genetics or ancestry. In other words, Muchalinda will never get a chance to dictate terms over the issues like the language that should be spoken in Hambantota, simply because he decided to become a Bengali.
If Muchalinda will become eligible to be treated as a Native of Bangladesh (or Bengali region in general) is an issue that needs to be discussed separately. However, according to The Theoretician who have been quoted by GAMA RAALA, this would only become possible if Muchalinda can find a theoretician of his caliber who can argue that Muchalinda is an ethnic Bengali while simultaneously claiming land rights to Hambantota based on his genetics.
* Thesawalamai
Lula, sorry to be harsh..but you have a serious problems in understanding simple sentences.
Long Title of the Thesawalamai Regulation No. 18 of 1806 identifies in no uncertain terms that the domain of Thesawalamai as the MALABAR INHABITANTS OF THE PROVINCES OF JAFFNA.
Civil Administrator Sweethenham has also mentioned in no uncertain terms that the law imposed on Vanni by the sitting magistrate is related to the customary laws of Malabars.
And you are arguing that what Sweethenham meant was not essentially that it was something adopted from Malabar Customary Law, while also arguing that the said Malabar Inhabitants are none other than native Inhabitants of Jaffna who were called such due to a mistaken identity. What a logic? And you are saying that I am the one who is insane.
-Muchalinda
.
Edited By - Mucha-linda - 26 Oct 2006 06:04:42 GM |
Mucha-linda
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26 Oct 2006 05:56:35 GMT Report for Abuse
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GAMAYA,
Are Sinhalese and Tamils 'NATIVE RACES' of Australia?
There must be tens of thousands of 'Sinhalese' and 'Tamil' chldren born in Australia whose ancestors originally arrived from Sri Lanka and Tamil Nadu.
I am not sure if Sinhalas are Native to Australia. But I at least know few Tamils who want to be treated as Natives of Australia. One of them lives in Cogee, in NSW.
Love
Mucha
:) |
GamaRaala
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26 Oct 2006 06:29:28 GMT Report for Abuse
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Mucha,
According to some, SL Tamils are a wonderful race. In one hand they claim they are 'ETHNIC INDIANS'. A moment later they say their race originated in Sri Lanka. Then again, they claim their cultural ancestors arrived from India.
N&E is their HOME LAND. Tamil Nadu is their FATHER LAND. Aus/UK/USA/Canada must be their STEP-FATHER LANDS.
Seeing the Step-fatherly treatments these Tamils get in those western countries (eg. Lack of Tamil Languge rights, Lack of Hindu religous rights), 'STEP-FATHER LANDs' sounds appropriate? ;-) |
tigeress19
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26 Oct 2006 09:39:15 GMT Report for Abuse
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Dear lula
I'm very sorry , i did not come back to you on time, history is not my favorite
but it is very important. you are an absolute asset to this forum and i have all
respects for you. please forgive me lula, my head wasn't tuned to the history part during last week.
now to the history.
from what you quote
Coming back to the history, before the 12th CAD and after 3rd CBC, that is after
emperor Ashoka sent his Buddhist missionaries and converted the King Devanampiya Tissa
(Theva Nambiya Theesan) and later his subjects (including Tamils) into Buddhism,
almost all the natives of Sri Lanka (including the Tamils) became Buddhists.
1)i was only looking for the above point and this is enough to say that the sinhalese became
majority in the island by converting the tamils to Buddhism.
low caste Tamils may have converted without much fuss first and then the higher higher
caste Tamils converted later. marrying Tamil Indian princesses may be one factor drove the
higher caste Tamils to convert to Buddhism.
2)the sinhala language born only after the arrival of Buddhism to the island.
Three of the greatest Pali scholars of this period were Buddhaghosa, Buddhadatta,
and Dhammapala and all three of them were associated with Buddhist establishments
in the Tamil kingdoms. Two of them, Buddhadatta, and Dhammapala were Tamils.
The third and the most celebrated, Buddhaghosa is one about whom reliable biographical
details are not available but a large number of Pali works are attributed to him.
It is a well-known fact that even Tamil Buddhist monks of South India used Prakrit
or Pali languages in preference to Tamil in their writings. This is because the Buddha
spoke in Prakrit and Pali and were considered to be the sacred languages of the
Buddhists.
the above quote says all, so lula ,all most all Tamils gave up the Tamil language and
adopted the sinhala language which comes from tamil, pali, prakrit, and north Indian.
sinhala language contains Tamils,pali and prakrit makes sense but north indian words lula?
is it because ashoka's Buddhist missionaries used north Indian language? or vijaya the kallathoni
and a mass murderer used north indian language eventually mixed up??
LULA , I WOULD LIKE TO BRING THIS POINT AT THIS STAGE,
There were temples, dedicated to the Supreme Lord Ishwaran, on all the four sides,
of ancient Ceylon. They safeguarded the little island from oceanic bed upheavals,
convulsions and other natural disasters that prevailed in the region during the
pre-historical eras. They were Thiruketheeshwaram and Muneshwaram Temples in the West,
Thondeshwaram in the South, Koneshwaram in the East and Naguleshwaram in the North.
These five celebrated Ishwarams or Pancha Ishwaram Temples were important landmarks
of the country and had India's adoration. The erudite scholar and historian,
Dr.Paul E.Pieris declared in 1917, at a meeting of the Royal Asiatic Society
(Ceylon Branch), that:
'Long before the arrival of Vijaya there was in Lanka five recognised Ishwarams of
Shiva which claimed and received adoration of all India. These were Thiruketheeshwaram
which was near Mahatittha, Muneshwaram dominating Salawatte and the pearl fishery,
Thondeshwaram near Mantota, ThiruKoneshwaram near the great Bay of Kottiyar and
Naguleshwaram near Kankesanturai ' .
it proves , Hindus are well established in the island long before the
arrival of vijaya and Buddhism. the majority must be Tamil along with malayalis, vedda and
rakshas.
in the past mucha had two base to argue
1)archaeological evidence
2)how come the sinhalese majority, (he often said, the whole bunch of sinhalese cannot be fell
from the sky and the sinhalese are native to the island.)
now i have answers for him to thrash him out. either he shut up or put up with it. i never trusted him
and i knew he was telling his-stories.
thank you very much lula,
the conclusion
1)sinhalese are Tamils converts
2)Buddhism was introduced to the island after Hinduism.
3)converted Buddhist gave up Tamil and found a new language called sinhala which is a mixer of pali,prakrit,tamil and north indian because Buddha spoke in pali and prakrit.
4)Buddhism is the key issue for many Tamils to convert and eventually to become majority in the island.
thank you.
Edited By - tigeress19 - 26 Oct 2006 09:51:10 GMT |
Shakti
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26 Oct 2006 10:02:43 GMT Report for Abuse
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Tigeress19,
Oh, my Gosh.
Thangatchi, you really know how to keep a moron busy.
Your long post means I will not hear any insults for few days.
Thanks for the unsolicited help. |
tigeress19
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26 Oct 2006 10:24:50 GMT Report for Abuse
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Ohh shakti anna
this his-story teller must shut up or put up with it and he is very proud of that kallathoni vijaya the mass murderer. he is a rare kind i would say!
Edited By - tigeress19 - 26 Oct 2006 10:33:22 GMT |
LuLa
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26 Oct 2006 13:00:13 GMT Report for Abuse
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Tigress dear,
Thanks for your reply, what can I say, you also started arguing somewhat similar to Muchalinda.
Try to read, also the previous posts I sent to you.
I forgot to mention one important point in that post.
During the period from 3rd CAD to 6th CAD, Buddhism had spread widely in Tamil Nadu, won the patronage of rulers there and became the dominant religion.
The situation in Tamil Nadu, however, began to change towards the beginning of the 7th CAD when the rise of Vaishnavism and Saivism posed a serious challenge to Buddhism and Jainism, and finally the Buddhist and Jaina institutions in Tamil Nadu came under attack when they began to loose popular support and the patronage from the rulers.
During the 10th CAD, when the Cholas who were strong Hindus (Saivism) were ruling Sri Lanka, they did everything in their power to destroy Buddhism and they managed to convert many Buddhists (mostly native Tamils and some Sinhalese) into Saivism. These Tamil Hindus later settled from Anuradapuram to Jaffna.
Since the Cholas were Tamils, most of the Sinhalese, due to their ignorance, still believe that the Cholas attacked Sinhalese religious sites. Actually, the Cholas attacked and damaged the Buddhist sites which belonged to both Sinhalese and the native Tamils.
Edited By - LuLa - 27 Oct 2006 04:29:56 GMT |
LuLa
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26 Oct 2006 13:03:37 GMT Report for Abuse
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Shakti
I cannot see any morons here but only some jokers. Have you also made a mistake in identity or is it due to lack of identity? |
LuLa
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26 Oct 2006 13:09:23 GMT Report for Abuse
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Friends,
I am sooo sorry, I do not have time to waste feeding punnakku to a GonRaala who comes up with very silly arguments and is famous for repeating the same thing over and over like a broken record.
Besides, Lula prefers to confront with Moras rather than with Kanayas. |
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