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Hindus set to convert to Buddhism
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LuLa
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16 Nov 2006 17:24:37 GMT Report for Abuse
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Mucha,
However, for the sake of this discussion, let us stop using someone's qualifications or his/ her reputation as a point to prove what he/ she has said. There will surely be some people in this forum who can give you detailed accounts on how Dr. Gunawardena earned his reputation
When you quote the name of a scholar on what he has said/written during your discussion, the readers should know who that person is and what credentials/credibility he has to speak/write on that particular subject.
Unlike Dr. Nalin de Silva, Dr. Leslie Gunawardena is a professor in HISTORY (NOT Physics), he is a HISTORIAN (not a his-storian), a Scholar (not a charlatan). When the academics and scholars in the same field of study (History) are calling him a leading light, an unbiased researcher (unlike Prof. Paranvithana whose views were always one sided), why should I go and ask a Sinhala-Buddhist chauvinist (and NOT in the same field) in this forum, how Dr. Leslie Gunawardena earned his reputation.
Edited By - LuLa - 16 Nov 2006 17:28:21 GMT |
Muru
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16 Nov 2006 18:54:58 GMT Report for Abuse
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Not only that, he has shown no hesitation to acknowledge that those NAGAs were Sinhalas. He might have thought that then but not now. The fact is we need to get a solid definition of what you and others mean by 'Sinhala'. The ethnicities of the early historic period are known as 'archaic ethnicities' (Indrapala goes into this in his book). Generally, most scholars accept that the terms Hela/Ila were used in this period (including 100AD) to denote the old equivalent of the modern day Sinhala. At this time there was a clear distinction made between Ila and Naga. If Naga = Ila/Sinhala/Hela as you have claimed, then why do they appear as a distinct group in all literary records of the time?
P173 - The Evolution Of An Ethnic Identity
'In the traditions preserved in the early Sri Lankan chronicles as well as the early Tamil literary works the Nagas appear as a distinct group'
As for the Vallipuram inscription, you could argue it is early Sinhala, but the fact remains that the language is in Prakit and not the fully evolved Sinhala language we associate today with the Sinhala people. Indeed, this language could be understood by any Prakit speaker at the time be they from SL, TN, Gujarat, Andra Pradesh, Bengal etc. This language can only be taken as a very, very early form of Sinhala, which incidently is still regarded as Prakit.
P143-144
'As Gunawardana has argued, it took a long time before all speakers of the Sinhala language were considered as belonging to the Sinhalese ethnic group'
So if we take the above statement into account, it would be tenuous to claim that the Nagas are directly equivalent to the Ila people of that era. The language of the Vallipuram inscription itself is not even fully formed Sinhala but Prakit. There is no evidence whatsoever that shows that the Nagas of Nagadeepa regarded themselves as Ila people at the time of that inscription. Though there is evidence of the Nagas assmilating into the Ila identity in the south after 300AD.
P174
'By the end of the 9th century, there is no evidence relating to the Nagas...The Nagas were assimilated into the two major ethnic groups in the Island. These two groups are now refered to as Hela and Demela in the inscriptions of the 9th century...the assimilation of the Nagas of Sri Lanka and South India into the main ethnic groups of the region was complete before the 9th century. One of the major developments in this period, therefore was the transformation of the dominant Naga group of the northern region into a Tamil-speaking group'
Edited By - Muru - 16 Nov 2006 19:07:52 GMT |
Muru
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16 Nov 2006 19:21:23 GMT Report for Abuse
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Whatever it maybe, the fact is no one can just unplug NAGAs from Sinhalas without sufficiently explaining why NAGAs used early day Sinhala Scripts, why there is no difference between those inscriptions supposedly have done by Nagas and those found on the other parts of the island that were done by Sinhalas, why Nagas had names very much like Sinhala etc. At the same time the Nagas in Tamil Nadu using the early Tamil script and reciting Tamil poetry during the Sangam age still regarded themselves as Nagas and not Demelas! It is possible that language in this era was not the sole major sign of ethnicity. Indrapala also comments on this in his book citing the Tamil-speaking Baratas as an example (A group who did not regard themselves as Tamils at the time). My underlying point is that the Nagas of Nagadeepa in all likelihood probably did not reach the point where THEY themselves regarded themselves as Ila/Hela people. At around 500 AD, the Tamil influences were becoming more and more pronounced - hence the name Jambulkopattana occuring (See Indrapala's book for more info).
Edited By - Muru - 16 Nov 2006 19:46:28 GMT |
GamaRaala
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16 Nov 2006 23:53:02 GMT Report for Abuse
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Lula,
Prof Senarath Paranavithana, Prof Karthigesu Indrapala, Professor Sirimal Ranwella and Professor Mendis Rohanadheera say that Vallipuram Gold Inscription was an early form of Sinhalese. Prof Karthigesu Indrapala said,
The language of the gold plate inscription from Vallipuram, the earliest epigraphic record discovered in the Jaffna peninsula, is the early form of Sinhalese, in which inscriptions of the time in other parts of the island were written.
So, to counter this strong consensus, you have to show there are even more number of historians believe this notion is incorrect. Quoting Shakti aka the LOOSER aka the EYE WITNESS is merely an empty joke.
What is even more ludicrous is the below;
(unlike Prof. Paranvithana whose views were always one sided)
Prof. Peter Schalk has done an extensive research ..
Lula, no serious historian accuses Prof. Paranvithana of 'one sided' to a level you imply. However, non-Elamist historians do not accept the mythical his-stories created by Upsala Professor Peter Schalk. It is well known that Upsala professor is an apologetic to the Tamil Eelamists. This professor was once banned from entering India for his links to the terrorist group LTTE -- this 'onesided-ness' is not a concern to you? :-) :-) Perhaps, you could next time quote Doctor Anton Balansingham!!
Ah...don't worry about it, he was the Doctor who conceded, 'SL Tamils are Ethnic Indians' :-) :-)
But this is not the most important thing. The most important thing now is Mucha's challenge and your hiding away. You are yet to unload one from the so-called 'truck load of evidence' from Indrapala's new book to prove that Vallipuram Gold Inscription was not an early form of Sinhalese. :-) So, if you cannot find at least one from 'truckload', don't come and be a charlatan weeping 'There are new evidences in the new book'. |
Kulakottan
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16 Nov 2006 23:59:02 GMT Report for Abuse
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| May be someone could read what the now very popular Prof. Indrapala has to say in his new book about Dr. Paranavitharana and the thinking of the 'Paranavitharana School' in Peradeniya about history! |
GamaRaala
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17 Nov 2006 00:24:46 GMT Report for Abuse
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Lula,
There is a saying that goes like 'When the Devil wants to make a point, it even quotes from the Bibile'.
Devil is merely deceiving. The Devil itself does not believe in the Bible or follow the advices in it. This is the same thing you are doing now, in regards to Dr Leslie Gunawardena.
In one hand you claim you could 'clearly identity Tamil Ethnic' prior to the 13 CAD.
On the other hand, you praise Dr Leslie Gunawardena, forgetting it was the same Dr Leslie Gunawardena that said 'neither Tamil Ethnic nor Sinhala Ethnic could be identified prior to 13 CAD'. Mister, if you believe Dr Leslie G, how on earth you are talking about a 'clearly identifiable Tamil Ethnic' prior to 13 CAD? :-) :-)
Edited By - GamaRaala - 17 Nov 2006 00:32:30 GMT |
GamaRaala
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17 Nov 2006 00:28:18 GMT Report for Abuse
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Kula,
May be someone could unload one from the 'truckload of evidence' from the new book! ;-) Specifically, Has Prof Indrapala given new evidence to counter argue that Vallipuram Gold Inscription was not an early form of Sinhalese? ;-) |
GamaRaala
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17 Nov 2006 00:41:08 GMT Report for Abuse
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Muru,
You owe an explanation to Lula. Lula believes it was not 'Devanampiya', but 'Deva Nambiya' which is very meaningful in Tamil. :-) Please explain to Lula that even the Mauryan King Asoka used the same title. Otherwise, Lula will conclude that you silence is acceptance of his gibberish. |
LuLa
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17 Nov 2006 00:52:42 GMT Report for Abuse
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Mucha,
* Challenge # 1
My challenge to you was to prove that there lived a group of people OTHER THAN CHOLAS (etc) who were Historically identified as Damedas.
Now my dear, can you please point me out where this good Professor has mentioned that those Demadas were different to those Cholas.
In my *belated reply*, can you tell me where I mentioned Cholas?
This is what the good Professor says at the beginning of the book (pg. 3), *The subject of this book*
This book is concerned with the Tamils who lived in Sri Lanka in the early centuries of its history and with the evolution of an ethnic community speaking the Tamil language in the Northern, Northwestern and Eastern regions of the Island whose decedents in modern times perceive themselves as an ethnic identity that is DIFFERENT from the Tamils of South India as well as other ethnic groups in Sri Lanka.
A few quotes from the book.
'The idea that the Demela were foreign intruders and the Hela fought to liberate their people is nonsensical'.
'The earliest inscriptions and the early Pali chronicles attest to the presence of the Tamils (Damedas/Damelas) in the EIA (Early Iron Age)'.
'The Demedas in Sri Lanka in the centuries BCE (Before Common Era or AD) need not, therefore, be considered as outsiders'.
The Ila (or Hela or Sila as the ancient Sri Lankan inhabitants were known) moved back and forth between Sri Lanka and South India just as the Demeda or Demela (Tamils) did.
The idea of looking upon the Demedas as aliens was surely not prevalent in the Early Historical Period (EHP).
The earliest extant chronicle of the island, namely, the Dipavamsa, does not refer to the Damila rulers of Anuradhpura (Sena and Guttaka) in its list as invaders. Nor does the Mahawamsa, the most important ancient Sinhala chronicle.
By the time of Kassapa, there are definite references in these epigraphs (sinhala inscriptions) to Tamil villages and lands. Demel-kaballa, Demelat-valademin and Demel-gam-bim which have been translated as Tamil-allotment, Tamil-lands, and Tamil-villages and lands. The interpretation of these terms and the provenance of the inscriptions referring to these terms are of great significance for the study of the Tamil population in the Anuradapura kingdom in the period under discussion.
Now, please do not waste my time any further on this, get a copy of his book.
Edited By - LuLa - 17 Nov 2006 00:55:10 GMT |
Mucha-linda
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17 Nov 2006 01:11:01 GMT Report for Abuse
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LULA
If you do not have any solid arguments to put forward, just leave this discussion. I will never call it a walk-over, and I can assure you that. I am sorry to say this, but don?t just type something for the sake of arguing. The reason is more you type foolish things, more you become a clown. If this is the way you are going to argue, I would rather respond to TIGRESS.
Just look at the following things you said. Do you think one need to stand his head down to show how contradicting you are.
* About Vallipuram Inscription
I know that, with a distinction in the Sinhala language at the O/L, you cannot read Brahmi.
What Sakthi said was, (in physical sense) the ancient Sinhala script (Sinhala-Brahmi) has no resemblance what so ever with the present day Sinhala alphabets.
VERY TRUE!
Mister, it was not Muchalinda who depended on the ability of the O/L Distiction holders ability to read Brahmi to prove that Vallipuram is not in ancient Sinhala Scripts, BUT YOU.
Don?t forget, you took it as an EYE WITNESS ACCOUNT. This is what you wrote.
Our friend Sakthi aka Naleen has inspected some of those prakrit inscriptions, he says those characters have no resemblance or similarity what so ever with the present day Sinhala and he could not read a single word, AN EYE WITNESS ACCOUNT
I hope you know the significance of such an account in a legal proceeding. BTW, this is exactly why I told you, when you type something without thinking, it will surely drag you more into trouble.
You also said,
Without beating around the bush, come to the point. Your main argument was about the syllable *Dha* on Vallipuram Gold Plate Inscription.
Lula, let the readers decide who is beating around the bush. However, it remains a fact that it was not the presence of a single *Dha-yanna* that made Vallipuram Inscription an ancient Sinhala one. No matte how much in denial you are, it remains a fact that words like *Bujameni*, *Amethi*, *Vihara*, *Karithe* etc are not only found in Vallipuram Gold Plate, but also in many others inscribed around that time.
As said in no uncertain terms in my previous posts, the whole reason for me to draw some attention to *Dha-yanna* is exactly the following.
What Sakthi said was, (in physical sense) the ancient Sinhala script (Sinhala-Brahmi) has NO RESEMBLANCE WHAT SO EVER with the present day Sinhala alphabets.
I visited the web site you have mentioned above and had a look at the so called ancient sinhala letters. Out of all those letters, I FOUND ONLY ONE LETTER WHICH LOOKS SOMEWHAT SIMILAR TO THE PRESENT DAY SINHALA LETTER DHA-YANNA
Lula, please do mind it was you who made both the above statements. That is exactly why I wanted you to pay some attention to *Dha-yanna*. Our O/L Sinhala Distinction holder and Eudite ANA-lyst NALEEN, being a Sinhalese failed to recognize this simple resemblance even in physical sense. But, you being a Tamil found those striking resemblance (FUN!!). Do you still believe in your EYE WITNESSS ACCOUNT my friend.
BTW, if what matters you there is if it is truly a *Dha-yanna*, for the time being please assume it as the @ sign, something that never existed in Sinhala. However, if that is the case, please also be aware that @ sign has also be found on numerous other inscriptions that carved around that time in areas as farther away from Vallipuram as Anuradhapura, Mihinthale etc (Basically, you may find this @ sign in all those inscriptions that have been translated by RACIST Dr. Senarath Paranavithana that reads as *Agatha Anagatha Chathu*DHI*sha, Shagasha*)((FUN FUN FUN!!).
It is absolutely hilarious to see you telling me to go and find out from the archeological department, knowing very well that it will never happen. Don?t you think that you are acting like a Konde Bendapu Javanese?
Mister, it is not me who acts like a Konde Bendapu Javanese, but you. Look at the following you said.
Biased researches like Paranavitana can come up with so many different meanings or translations, but who else has confirmed that the above is true. People like Prof. Karthigesu Indrapala, Dr. Abhaya Aryasinghe, Dr. W. I. Siriweera etc did not say anything about the letter (*Dha*).
When you ask utter stupid questions like that, I have to respond accordingly. Mister, if any of these scholars had any issues about Dr. Paranavithanas reading, they should have raised those before commenting further on the inscription. Cant you remember, you yourself wrote the following.
Silence denotes acceptance
So, why it cannot be the case for those scholars. Do you really expect me to behave differently in responding to arguments like that. As mentioned earlier, dont just type something for the sake of arguing.
You also said,
Just like the term Eelam, the Vallipuram Gold Plate Inscription is also a controversial issue; many scholars have many different opinions. The controversy still continues whether it was a Sinhala or Dravidian (Amravati) inscription. The name of the chief who is referred in the inscription is 'Iskviraya'. The question is whether it is prakritise Tamil name.
Lula, I am not surprised about this at all. It is the usual practice of the Eelamists to make such unfounded controversies over obvious facts. If Devanapiya Thissa can became a Theva Nambiya Thesan (who is currently RIP), there cannot be any reason for *Amethi Isagiraya* to become a *Iskviraya*. This is there usual practice. They first make a controversy to make the readers confused and then prove what they want usually with some fabrication.
* About Dr. Leslie Gunawardena.
I think I was made myself sufficiently clear abut this. If you want me to believe Dr. Leslie Gunawardena over Dr. Nalin De Silva over history (or Dr. Nalin De Silva over Dr. Leslie Gunawardena over Astrophysics), please let know that it is not going to work. I usually accept (or deny) someone based on how solid his arguments and his evidences are, rather than looking at his qualifications or his reputation.
I would not mind if anyone looks at the credentials of someone before buying what he/ she says. But the fact is I have serious doubts about Dr. Gunawardenas credentials. When he wants, he make Mahavansaya a *national epic of the Sinhala Buddhists Consciousness*. But then argues that there was no Sinhala Buddhist identity until 12 CAD.
BTW, I have NO further interest to waste my time on someone's reputation. If you want, you may quote Dr. Leslie Gunawardena. However if I raise questions about his opinion, just reply me with the facts he used therein to prove his case, rather than forcing me to acknowledge whatever he says based on his reputation. I will do the same whenever I am quoting anyone, including Dr. Nalin De Silva, if it matters.
-Muchalinda
.
Edited By - Mucha-linda - 17 Nov 2006 01:12:25 GM |
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