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Hindus set to convert to Buddhism
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LuLa
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2 Nov 2006 15:44:54 GMT Report for Abuse
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Hello Shan,
When these pseudo-historians/his-story tellers and bogus scholars/charlatans start twisting the history with their own fabricated stories and hypothesis, as you said, we may have to request for a video footage. |
LuLa
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2 Nov 2006 19:39:55 GMT Report for Abuse
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Mucha,
Before I come to the subject of bigger Joker and Massive Joker (clown), let me continue from where I stopped last time.
About THEVA NAMBIYA THESAN
If you read my posts clearly, I never said that Devanampiya Tissa aka Theva Nambiya Thesan was a Tamil. What I said was, his name has a clear meaning in Tamil.
Therefore, I will not waste my time and the web space by commenting any further on this, especially without doing a proper research about Theva Nambiya Thesan.
About the five Ishwaran Temples
he wrote that in a paper submitted to the Volume 28 of the Journal of the said Society, called *NAGADIPA AND BUDDHIST REMAINS IN JAFFNA*, a heading cleverly omitted by tamilnation.org for obvious reasons. FYI: It was this very ERUDITE SCHOLAR who also discovered remains of an Ancient Buddhist Temple in Hunugama aka Chunnakam.
In many of my posts, I have shown clearly, quoting the most renowned present day historians, that the Prakrit /Pali names of places and people, and the Buddhist remains in any part of Sri Lanka (or even Tamil Nadu) does not prove that ONLY Sinhalese lived in that area. During this early period, before the 12th CAD, it was not easy to identify or differentiate the people of Sri Lanka as Tamils or Sinhalese because they were all living together as Buddhists in the entire country and their names were very similar.
As per the pre-historic and early historic inscriptions in Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka, the Tamil names did not end with an 'n' or a 'm' but were very similar to those Prakrit or Pali names ending with 'a'.
It was only in the last few centuries that the language, the shape of the characters, the names etc. have evolved into the present form. This might have happened after the Tamils developing what it is commonly called as the 'pulli (dot) system' which is peculiar to South Indians (especially Tamils in particular) among the Indian languages and due to this dot system the words/names ending with 'a' ends up with 'n' and 'm'.
Unless the ancient chronicles told us that Sena, Guttaka, and Elara were Tamils from Sri Lanka and Buddhadatta, and Dhammapala were Tamils from Tamil Nadu we would have never known or even believed.
Their situation close to these ports cannot be the result of accident or caprice and was probably determined by the concourse of a wealthy MERCANTILE POPULATION whose religious wants called for attention.
What is evident is that the people who worshipped at those temples were not a native Tamil population of the island, but a wealthy seafaring mercantile population who came here and temporarily settled down around the main sea ports.
First of all, let me point out that the South Indians (mostly Tamils) worship God Siva (Saivisim) more than the others (other parts of India) who mostly worship Brahma and Vishnu, and these five ancient temples were dedicated to God Siva.
Dr. Paul E. Peris also said (sorry wrote) that, ..it stands to reason that a country which was only thirty miles from India and which would have been seen by Indian fisherman every morning as they sailed out to catch their fish, would have been occupied as soon as the continent was peopled by men who understood how to sail...
It is obvious that, other than those aboriginal yakkhas (Veddhas), the South Indian Hindus who worshipped God Siva (Tamils), not only the wealthy Mercantile Population but also many others including the fisherman were already there (may be not a considerable amount), who would have settled at least at those port cities of the Island long before Vijaya was born.
According to Prof. K. Indrapala, the earliest inscriptions and the early Pali chronicles attest to the presence of the Tamils (Damedas/Damelas) in Sri Lanka in the centuries BCE (Before Common Era or AD), they need not, therefore, be considered as outsiders.
The fact is none of those findings by Dr. Paul E. Peris disputes with the declaration Prof. Karthigesu Indrapala made about absence of any permanent Tamil Settlements in Sri Lanka before the 13CAD.
Renowned Sri Lankan historians and archeologists like K Indrapala, Siran Deraniyagala, Leslie Gunawardena and Sudarshan Seneviratne, contend that Sri Lanka has been multi-ethnic and multi-cultural from prehistoric times.
Please do not quote Prof. Karthigesu Indrapala?s obsolete theories that he himself has discarded.
If you think that having five Ishawaran temples is sufficient enough to prove the existence of a permanent *Eela Tamil* population, and thereby their right of self determination.
You have misunderstood the whole concept. All the above only shows that the Tamils were living in the Island right from the beginning, even before Vijay arrived, but ancient history has nothing to do with the present ethnic conflict and the Tamil rights to self determination.
Here, we have a situation where one race (Sinhalese) GRABING all the political/economic power for itself just because it is a majority, without sharing them fairly among the others races (Tamils and Muslims) who occupy a separate land, almost one-third of the country (geography).
Please leave history alone, there is nothing wrong with history and history has nothing to do with the present conflict, those who sit around the table to talk peace never discuss history. Tamils have lived in this country as a separate ethnic group/nation (language, religion and culture) within a separate geographical area (traditional homeland) for many centuries. Asking for a federal state (like many other countries) with a fair share of political/economic power to manage their own affairs (NOT a separate country, I do not agree with LTTE) which already existed until the British abolished it, is definitely not a crime.
Thirignanasampanthar never sang Thevaram at Thirukethishwaran in 6 th CBC. Instead it took place 11 Centuries later, during the 5th CAD.
This is something similar to Ven. Mahanama writing the Mahavamsa in 6th CAD about the events that took place 11 Centuries earlier, during the 5th CBC. Just like ven. Mahanama had found some ancient articles such as Sihala Katha (I am not talking about Deepavamsa which begins from Devanampiyatissa) to write all about Buddha?s three visits, and Vijay?s landing. I am sure Thirignanasampanthar also must have found some katha to compose his Thevaram. So, lets leave Thirignanasampanthar for the moment until I find the katha.
Vigneswaran's hypothesis may be intriguing to you. But that is definitely nothing exciting to me,
Well, I do not know how Erudite Dr. Vigneswaran is, but he is definitely not a pseudo-historian or a charlatan like the ones you have mentioned. What I know is, he has done an extensive research on Thirukoneswaram temple, studying each and every rock, the inscriptions and its history in relation to South India/Sri Lanka.
As Professor Pathmanathan said, the systematic excavations done in the Trincomalee district could bring valuable historical evidence to establish the history of Tamils in the country, we still have to wait.
PS: Given the limited time available to both of us, lets not deviate from the original subject to other minor issues which are not very relevant to our discussion. |
LuLa
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2 Nov 2006 20:04:00 GMT Report for Abuse
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Deleted.
Edited By - LuLa - 4 Nov 2006 03:08:04 GMT |
LuLa
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3 Nov 2006 00:26:21 GMT Report for Abuse
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Mucha,
About Capt. Robert Percival, Sir Hugh Cleghorn, the bigger Joker and the Massive Joker (clown)
When I quoted Sir Hugh Cleghorn?s famous statement in favor of Tamils (freely available on the web) right at the very beginning of our discussions, you knew very well that I was not aware that he has made a mistake (not a part of that statement) by calling the Sinhalas as descended from Siamese (Thailand, may be due to the common religion).
Where as, when YOU quoted the statement made by Capt. Robert Percival in favor of Sinhalas, you already knew very well, what a huge mistake he made in his statement by quoting that the greatest number of inhabitants of Jaffna consist of Malabars of Moorish extraction; they are distinguished by wearing a little round cap on their close shaven heads. Even though I have not read his entire work, I have a lot of doubts about the credibility of everything else that he has written about Sri Lanka.
Let the readers decide, who the Massive Joker (clown) is.
About Eela/Eelam.
Well, you and I can continue arguing on the opinions and theories/hypothesis put forward by different scholars regarding the origin of the word Eela/Eelam but there will always be a controversy surrounding this issue, a matter for the historical linguists to settle.
As I mentioned earlier, the origin of the term Eela is not relevant to our discussion, generally Eela or Eelam in the Tamil language is referred to Sri Lanka, lets not deviate from our original subject.
If I am allowed to quote your favorite professor again, this is how he concluded his argument over the opinions of S. Gnanapragasar. I know. It is very sad. But what can we do. Perhaps you may rethink about your favorite personnel.
Well, he is your favorite professor as long as you still believe in his 1965 PhD thesis which he himself has discarded. According to him, he does not even have a copy of that PhD. dissertation as he thought it had become so obsolete because within the last four decades, very significant developments have taken place, both in terms of archaeological research and changing historical perspectives. |
Kulakottan
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3 Nov 2006 00:40:18 GMT Report for Abuse
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Hi Lula,
You must be really working hard. Here is another gem from Percival:
The present king (of Kandy)who was elected thorugh the influence of the Adigar, I have already mentioned, is a native of the island of Ramiseram, on the Malabar Coast, opposite Mannar
Emphasise mine.
The knowledgable Capt. beleived that opposite Mannar is the Malabar Coast, which is not the case. The Malabar coast is on the S.West coast of India, excatly on the opposite side of the S.E.Coast of India which is opposite Mannar.
Perhaps he did not see the difference between Malabar Coast and Coramandel Coast despite the fact that he knew that 'Cape Comerin, the southern most point of the peninsula India, which divides the Coramandel Coast and Malabar Coasts'.
He also had felt:
The Malays are another race, who form considerable proportion of the inhabitants of Ceylon
I wonder how you quantify 'a considerable propotion' perhaps about 20%?????? (I am at a loss)
He says this too about the Cingalese:
Those who suppose that Ceylon once formed part of the continent of India, and was disunited from it only by some unusual shock of nature, find no difficulty in peopling it with the same race who inhabited it before it became a sperate island. Indeed the distance is so small between Ceylon and the continent, that it requires no stretch of imagination to suppose that it was peopled by either from the Coromandel or Malabar coasts; and this is in fact the received opinion among most people
Looks like he too subscribed to the theory of 70% blood of Sinhalese is from people S.India ..hahahahhha!!
Edited By - Kulakottan - 3 Nov 2006 02:03:28 GMT |
Mucha-linda
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3 Nov 2006 02:30:56 GMT Report for Abuse
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LULA,
It, of course, is a good thing to avoid deviating to minor matters, even though we never had anything to be identified as an original topic. As such, if you did not see me commenting on a particular point you raised during your previous discourses, please bear in mind that it is not essentially because I have nothing to say (and I will do the same).
* About Native Tamil Buddhists
First of all, pleas accept my heartiest CONGRATULATIONS on your newest opinion. You must be the first person to come up with this as a Theory.
Before investigating the credentials of your theory, it is good to know from where this bogus theory derived. As far as I know, the first person who made few rants to this effect is Appapillai Amirthalinkam. What he in fact said was that the people who worshipped numerous Buddhist Temples that existed in North **AND** East are Tamil Buddhists. However, he soon abandoned that idea, seemingly having realized the obvious flaws in that. Without being discouraged by such setbacks, certain Eelamists websites further developed this idea. It must be from there both Thivya and Tigress adopted the opinion that Sinhalas are converts of Law Caste Tamils Hindus. However that was not what Amirthalinkam wanted to say. What he tried to establish was the complete opposite (i.e. the modern day Tamil Hindus are the coverts of those Tamil Buddhists who worshipped those Buddhist Temples since antiquity). In a way, your new theory is in par with that of Amirthalinkam's.
Lets get back to the Theory (or opinion).
Lula, it is true that there were Tamil Buddhists in Sri Lanka in the past (some prominent figures being Arahant Solee Rata Maha Kassapa, a participant in the First Council of Buddhism held in Sri Lanka and Ven. Morathota Dhammakkhanda, a fifth generation South Indian and an advisor to the King Rajadhi Raja Singha of Nayakkar clan!!).
However Lula, there is a little problem.
Almost all the ruins so far discovered in North **AND** East have somehow been identified to have built by a particular person, and all of them are Sinhala Kings. For example all Jambukola Vihara (near present day Sambiliturai, KKS), Pachina Vihara and Thissa Maha Vinhara (all in Peninsular Jaffna) were built by King Devanampiya Thissa (had you not distanced yourself from Theva Nambiya Thesan logic, you whould have used it here). Puyanguka Vihara was built by King Vasabha, again a Sinhala king. Rajayathana Vihara was built by King Aggabodhi II. Kandarodai Vihara near Uduvil was by King Dappula IV. All these Viharas are in Peninsular Jaffna and have been archaeologically/ historically established.
Lula, I know that the above is not going to prove that there were no Tamil Buddhists among the worshippers of those temples. However the fact it proves is that those areas (i.e. Peninsular Jaffna) were under the exclusive control of Sinhala Kings at the time and that there wasn't any independent Tamil Kingdoms in that part of the country at that time.
However, what gives an indication to the ethnicity of the people who lived in around those areas during those times are the numerous inscriptions discovered so far. As you may already know, being a language born within the island, development of Sinhala (and specially its syllabary) is something that has been well established through different phases, beginning from Pali (and the letters from Brahmi). You may also know that the whole reason to carve these inscriptions is to let the people know who built those temples etc.
The problem is all most all the inscription belonged to the times these temples were built were written (carved) in the early forms of Prakit Sinhala using early forms of Sinhala Syllables. Dont forget that this was a time Tamil syllabary had already started its own course of development from Brahmi and was well into that. The fact is none of those characters have no relation to Brahmic Tamil syllabary whatsoever.
The CLASSIC EXAMPLE to this effect is the Vallipuram Gold Plate inscription which is about a Buddhist Vihara at Piyanguka (aka Puwangu Dweepa which is present day Punguduthivu) built by a Minister of King Vasabha (67-111 AD). THIS WAS A TIME THE TAMIL BUDDHISTS OF SOUTH INDIA HAVE ALREADY STARTED WRITING MANIMAKHLAI IN WELL DEVELOPED TAMIL.
That is not all. There are truck loads of other inscription discovered in the so called native Tamil Homeland belonging to the period before 13th CAD and almost all of them are written in early forms of Sinhala. The only Tamil inscription of this period is the one discovered at the entrance to Nakapusani Amman Temple in present day Nagadipa (or Nainathivu). That was again inscribed by King Parakramabahu I (1153-1186 AD) and contains certain TRADE regulations concerning the wreckages off the port of Uratturai or present day Kyts (This is where Dr. Paul E. Peris's MERCANTILE POPULATION comes into the equation). What this also reveals is the existence of a developed version of Tamil at the time, even though it has nothing to do with the inhabitants of the Peninsular and its surrounding.
Having said all that, let me finally tell you that I am no way arguing that there lived no Tamil speaking Tamils in Sri Lanka at the time. What I am saying is that there is no scientific evidence to prove the presence of any permanent Tamil settlements in the Peninsular (and its surroundings) before the 11 th CAD. Do mind that presence of Tamil speaking Tamils alone is not going to make this a homeland of anyone.
The evidence I provided above should be more than enough for anyone to understand what Appapillai Amirthalinkam has seemingly understood after 1984 (not essentially after 13 th of July 1989).
-Muchalinda
PS: This contains work done by Prof.s Indrapala, Ranvella and Dr. Senarath Paranavithana.
.
Edited By - Mucha-linda - 3 Nov 2006 05:22:14 GMT |
Mucha-linda
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3 Nov 2006 02:35:36 GMT Report for Abuse
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Dear SHAN and KULA,
I appreciate your contribution. However, I will not be able to comment on the points you both brought up due to certain constraints, like lack of time.
-Muchalinda
. |
Kulakottan
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3 Nov 2006 04:00:11 GMT Report for Abuse
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Dear Mucha,
No probelm; it was just a passing comment when I saw the name of Percival. It was not for the purpose of a debate.
As, you know I do not just accept what these ignorant Europeans say without looking at them critically.
If you read his book you will see, how much of load of ignorant comments he has made on many issues.
Kula |
LuLa
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3 Nov 2006 04:53:47 GMT Report for Abuse
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Kula,
An excellent contribution and a great support to this debate. Thank you sooo much.
This confirms how ignorant those Europeans were on the subject they were writing.
The other fellow who lived with the Sinhalese for 20 years and who was fluent in Sinhala is calling them Chingulayes.
These great jokers have become the favorites of our massive jokers (clowns) in trying to prove their newly fabricated his-stories.
Thanks Kula for your great support. |
LuLa
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3 Nov 2006 06:20:34 GMT Report for Abuse
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Shakti,
I have warned my good friend LuLa about the vices of debating with modayaas but what can I do if he does not listen?
I am just enjoying the fun man, nothing serious and no hidden agendas because this ancient history is not going to take us anywhere, and the problems we have today has nothing to do with all these, it needs a genuine permanent solution. |
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