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Hindus set to convert to Buddhism
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shan
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1 Nov 2006 07:53:51 GMT Report for Abuse
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Hey Lula the Man.
Good to see you back but unfortunately you are hooked up with the obsessive compulsive disorder. I accidentally noted this thread last night. Now I noted new phenomena, be ready to get Tamil language lessons from his- story teller. The way the lesson is going is remarkable. If your name is Dutagamini your Tamil translations name will be Ellalan. Linkage through pali X,Yand Z. You been through this headache before so it won't take much of your time with your friend. I glanced through the stuff last night, nothing new but tried hard to make bit of glossy with usual twisting.
Some historians' names are mentioned to support his argument with page references. I have seen these crap in some articles appeared in web pages unfortunately I couldn't look for it now. It is possible SL Tamil could have been from one of the Malabar or perhaps one from Elalan relatives. So, wouldn't be nice if these same named historians can give some light how much Tamils landed in the N&E and Timing and the page references and evidences and close the case? If King Vijaya can learn to speak the native language Sinhela what was wrong with Tamils who settled among Sinhalese in the N&E?
Bit more I will write this evening. |
Shakti
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1 Nov 2006 09:21:22 GMT Report for Abuse
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We need certain ingredients to make fruit salad.
Say we need mango, pine apple, papw, bananas, grapes etc.
When these ingredients are mixed in correct amounts and in the correct manner (peeled and cut) we get a delicious dish.
However, if we give the same ingredients to a monkey, unless otherwise he makes INFINITE attempts he will hardly make a fruit salad.
I dont have to describe what he makes. Only thing I am sure is, nobody would be able to eat it.
The works of Ven. Mahanama, Prof. Paranavithana, Prof. Indrapala, Robert Knox etc too are ingredients to a scholarly paper.
However, that does not mean any monkey can use them and mix them in any order he prefers and finally end up with a scholarly paper. (unless otherwise he makes INFINITE attempts)
I dont have to describe what he makes. Nobody would even be bothered to read it. :-)
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CannonFodder
Joined: Mar 2005
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1 Nov 2006 16:20:33 GMT Report for Abuse
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Lula, Mucha-Linda;
Thanks for the informative, civilized and interesting thread. Glad I found time to go through.
Meanwhile, if The Monkey can stay away that will be really helpful. there are many other threads to vandalise. Please just leave this one alone for now. |
LuLa
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1 Nov 2006 18:42:17 GMT Report for Abuse
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Mucha,
Eela does not mean Sri Lanka but it is the archaic form of the Tamil word for *Sinhala*.
What you have mentioned are the versions of different people's opinion about the term Eela or Eelam, and since Dr. S. Krishnaswami Aiyanagar is from the Madras University, Tamil Nadu, the Tamil Lexicon of Madras may have adopted his version. However, Dr. Krishnaswami Iyengar also added that,
'The question whether the Pali word has a Tamil original must be left open for the present.'
There are many other versions as well, for example, 'Sri Lanka was known to the ancient Tamils as Elam and Elamandalam and it has continued to be so known to the present day. The island must have been called Elam because Elu was spoken there; or perhaps the language was called Elu because it was spoken in Elam. From 'Elam' came 'Silam', 'Sihalam' and 'Sinhalam' and from Silam came 'Zeilon' of the Portuguese, 'Ceilan' and 'Seilan' of the Dutch and 'Ceylon' of the English. Some of them say even Hela came from the word Eela'.
I am not going to list all those versions any further because the origin of the term Eela is not relevant to our discussion, generally Eela or Eelam in the Tamil language is referred to Sri Lanka.
Ilam to us seems to be directly derived from the Pali word Sihalam
I would also like to point out that pali was introduced to the island only in the 3rd CBC along with Buddhism and the term Sihalam or Sihala is found in the Mahavamsa only in its first few opening chapters, where it is said that the followers of Vijaya were called Sihala because his father killed his father - a lion - and hence was called Sihabahu. The Mahavamsa does not mention the term Sihala or its derivations any further. Infact though the Mahavamsa says that when Mahinda introduced Buddhism in circa 250 B.C, he preached in the language of the Island. It does not say whether the language was Elu or Sinhala or Tamil. A liberal use of the term Sihala is found only in the Culavamsa which is said to have been composed in the 12th CAD. Even the term Sihaladvipa is found only in the Culavamsa. We also find that both in the Mahavamsa and Culavamsa, it is the term Lanka which is almost always used to denote this Island. There are four or five occasions where the term Tambapanni was also used.
Regarding the Kings of Jaffna
Once again you are coming up with many versions of unestablished facts.
However, given what Dr. Gananath Obeysekara has first said according to you, I cannot understand why he has later attributed that to a 'case of MISTAKEN IDENITY', if what you said is correct. Therefore, it would be much appreciated if you can quote him where he reduced this to a sheer case of mistaken identity.
I have already mentioned many times that, according to history, not only Cholas and Pandyans (both Tamils) but also Cheras (Malabars) came to the island from time to time and settled from North to South and got assimilated with the local population. It is true that King Kalinga Magha brought an army from the Chera (Malabar) kingdom who later settled in the island including the North. It is true that the Cholas (Tamils) who came in the 10th and 11th CAD settled in the island including the North. It is also true that there were Sinhalese living in the North, but most of all, there were a considerable amount of indigenous Tamils (Buddhists) living in the country right from the beginning, or at least from the time of Devanampiya Tissa. (The earliest evidence regarding the presence of Tamils in Sri Lanka is well established with native Tamils (NOT invaders) such as Sena and Guttaka from a merchant family gaining power at Anuradhapura says Prof. K. Indrapala). All these (above mentioned) people were responsible for the origin of the Sri Lankan (Eela) Tamil race which evolved in a separate land (Tamil Eelam), with a separate religion (Saivaism), Language (Tamil) and culture(Hindu).
As per Prof. K. Indrapala (in his book), 'The Sinhalese and Tamils of Sri Lanka are descended from the common ancestors who lived in that country in prehistoric and protohistoric times and have a shared history going back to over two thousand years'.
When the Europeans arrived, the people of Jaffnapatanam were a well established Tamil race with a Tamil Kingdom. Dr. Gananath Obeysekara very correctly says in no uncertain terms that it was a sheer case of MISTAKEN IDENITY to call them Malabars.
please also be aware that they (inhabitants of Jaffnapatnam) have neither been identified as Natives of Sri Lanka by any of the parties you mentioned. Neither Sinhalas, nor South Indian Tamils nor Malabars nor Sri Lankan Tamils have anywhere called (and identified) Sri Lankan Tamils as Natives.
If you argue in such terms, even Sinhalese are not natives. Only the Veddhas can be called the actual original natives of the Island.
Many communities (migrants and natives) assimilated and formed the Sinhala race in the Island, who later adopted a Religion (Buddhism), language (Indo-Aryan) and culture (Buddhist) from North India. Similarly many communities (migrants and natives) assimilated and formed the Sri Lankan Tamil race in Tamil Eelam (NE) and adopted the Religion (Saivaism), language (Tamil) and culture (Hindu) from South India. They both had their own kingdoms and lived as two separate ethnic groups/nations from 12th CAD, until the British united them.
Let me also remind you what Robert Knox had to say after spending almost 20 years as a captive of the Kandyan King.
Like all other Europeans, even Robert Knox called the Tamils as Malabars. He first landed in the East and then lived in Kandy for 20 years as a captive. During his period the east was under the Kandyan kingdom. What he observed was that the people in the East (where he first landed) were following a different religion, language and culture (STRANGERS, when compared to those he was living with) very similar to South Indian (must be FREE DENIZONS from ANOTHER COUNTRY, where he had been before), but paying tax to the Kandyan (Chingulay) King (Chingulays, PROPER OWNERS of the country).
The view that the Sinhalese were the proper inhabitants of the Island and the Tamils were foreigners came to dominate colonial historical writings due to obvious reasons as I have clearly elaborated in my entire argument.
Mucha,
Now, lets get back to your original argument. That is,
There were considerable amount of recently migrated Malabars in Jaffnapatnam during the Dutch period, and they lived as Malabars, in addition to those Coromandels who were taken there as slave labour. It is this which made Europeans to call inhabitants of Jaffnapatnam as Malabars.
When you came up with such a strong point of view, I thought you will come up with some solid evidence, but as usual, your only argument is based on how the Europeans addressed them Malabars or as foreigners and your best example was that biggest joker, the Irish Capt. Robert Percival who lived in the country for three years. What he said was, 'The inhabitants of Jaffna consist of a collection of various races. The greatest number of Malabars of Moorish extraction, and are divided into several tribes known by the names of Lubbahs, Belalas, Mopleys, Chittys, Choliars and a few Brahamins; they are distinguished by wearing a little round cap on their close shaven heads'.
By quoting such jokers to argue your point, you have only turned into a bigger joker.
To be continued.
Edited By - LuLa - 1 Nov 2006 18:54:45 GMT |
LuLa
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1 Nov 2006 19:10:23 GMT Report for Abuse
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Hello Shan,
Long time no see, how are you?
Yes, once again as usual, Paranavitana and Indrapala and the same old history, but this time with too many his-stories.
Anyways, glad to see you here. |
LuLa
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1 Nov 2006 19:12:50 GMT Report for Abuse
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CannonFodder,
Thankyou sir for those kind words. |
Mucha-linda
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2 Nov 2006 02:46:16 GMT Report for Abuse
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LULA,
Let me start from the end this time.
By quoting such jokers (i.e. Capt. Robert Percival) to argue your point, you have only turned into a bigger joker.
Asking this out of curiosity, if quoting an Irish Captain by the name Robert Percival has graduated me to a level of a Bigger Joker, what should we call a person who quotes a British Colonial Secretary by the name Sir Hugh Cleghorn to prove the presence of Tamils since antiquity, ignoring the fact he is the very person who also made the joke that Sinhalas are descended from Siamese!!
Should we call such a person a Massive Joker..OR should we call him a CLOWN.
Lula, I am not going to comment on what the *good* Irish Captain said about the inhabitants of Jaffnapatnam (after all, the last thing I want right now is to start another row on the Moors of Jaffnapatnam). However, if you want, you may call me a Joker, but don?t call the *good* Captain a joker. He does not deserve that. Do never judge him by the duration of his stay (in fact, he stayed here more than 3 years). FYI, Malabars and Moors are not the only subjects he spoke about in his celebrated work ACCOUNT OF THE ISLAND OF CEYLON. He also has written detailed accounts of other things like pearl fishery, ports around the island, Ceylon?s geology and geography, its minerals, its flora and fauna, customs of its inhabitants and their religions and beliefs, their military organization and also about the inland capital Candy. Let the readers decide if he is ill-informed or misinformed.
* About Eela = Sinhala
What you have mentioned are the versions of different people's opinion about the term Eela or Eelam, and since Dr. S. Krishnaswami Aiyanagar is from the Madras University, Tamil Nadu, the Tamil Lexicon of Madras may have adopted his version.
Lula, what I am doing, of course, is quoting the opinions of different people about origins of the Tamil term Eela. In fact, that is pretty much all I can do in a web forum. It is completely up to the readers to decide whom t believe based on their credentials.
If I am allowed to quote your favourite professor again, this is how he concluded his argument over the opinions of S. Gnanapragasar.
Thus, Ilam could be derived from the name Sihala and would therefore, mean the land of the Sinhalese rather than indicate that Ceylon was originally settled by the Tamils. Gnanapragasar's arguments, on this score, will become groundless. THE DERIVATION OF ILAM FROM SINHALA IS ACCEPTED BY LEADING TAMIL SCHOLARS. (Chapter 2, Emphasis added)
I know..it is very sad. But what can we do. Perhaps you may rethink about your favourite personnel.
BTW Lula, I don?t know if Dr. S. Krishnaswami Aiyanagar has made any contribution to Madras Tamil Lexicon. What all I know is that it was edited by someone called Prof S Vaiyapuri Pillai (1891-1956) and that Dr. S. Krishnaswami Aiyanagar was not in the committee appointed to compile the Dictionary.
Some of them say even Hela came from the word Eela
Lula, there is a subject called linguistic that studies the origins of different words based on their phonetics. According to basic rules of linguistics, the word Eela can never become Hela, but v. v. In Sinhala, it was Hela Awulu that later became Elawalu (same as Hela Kiri -61664; Elakiri). I will give you the exact reference to this effect as soon as I located the correct URL.
Ilam to us seems to be directly derived from the Pali word Sihalam (Dr. S. Krishnaswami Aiyangar)
I would also like to point out that pali was introduced to the island only in the 3rd CBC along with Buddhism
Lula, I can see the point you are going to make. To what Dr. Aiyangar has referred there as Pali must be a Prakit form spoken in the region at the time, and not essentially the Textual Language of Buddhist Texts (after all, there is no word called Sinhalam in Pali). It is again the good Professor Indrapala who made a detailed account from where the Tamil word Ilam is derived. Let me revisit him to alleviate any doubts.
The earliest occurrence of this name is in the Brahmi inscription of South India. In these inscriptions, from TIRUPPARANKUNRAM and SITTANNAVASAL, occurs the Prakrit form of this name, namely Ila. Evidently it is from this Prakrit form that the Tamil Ilam is derived. It could be shown that Ila is derived from Sinhala through the Pali Sihala, or more probably through another Prakrit form Sihila. (Chapter 2)
Lula, the two inscriptions namely Tirupparankunram and Sittannavasal, are both written on Stone Beds and carry some of the earliest forms of Tamil Brahmi. Interestingly, both the inscriptions have written after the introduction of Buddhism to Sri Lanka (Sittannavasal during 2 nd CBC and Tirupparankunram during 1 st CAD).
Long live Indrapala!
I will comment on rest of the points you raised in due course, as time permits.
-Muchalinda
.
Edited By - Mucha-linda - 2 Nov 2006 02:46:57 GMT |
Shakti
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2 Nov 2006 03:21:36 GMT Report for Abuse
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My dear CannonFodder,
Thanks for the informative, civilized and interesting thread.
It is good that at least one member of the forum finds it worth to take time to read this debate.
I am sure you are a new comer sir. For the old timers it is nothing but the nth rerun of the same old stuff.
(I have warned my good friend LuLa about the vices of debating with modayaas but what can I do if he does not listen?)
Mr. CannoFodder, we have heard about people like Indrapala, Hugh Cleghorn, Mudliar Rasanayagam, Philippus Baldaeus so many times that we now know about them more than we know our own neighbours. (The only character so far did not appear in this thread is Sylvester James Velupillai Chelvanayakam and I am sure good ole Thanthai Chelva will make an appearance very soon.) Not to mention Malabars and Coromandal.
However Mr. Cannonfodder I am glad that you still enjoy the debate.
BTW, have you ever heard about an Indian made tele-drama called 'Chitti'?
1.Chitti was first telecast by Sirasa about 2-3 years ago with Sinhala sub titles.
2.The Swarnawahini telecast the same with Sinhala subtitles.
3.Now Sirasa is showing it again, this time dubbed in Sinhala.
I hear in spite of it being the THIRD TELECAST (and second rerun) this programme is one of the mostly watched tele dramas in SL today.
I am sure there are people who will watch Chitti even for the tenth time.
Long live Chitti.
.
Edited By - Shakti - 2 Nov 2006 03:23:24 GMT |
shan
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2 Nov 2006 15:17:50 GMT Report for Abuse
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Hi Lula
I am fine. Hope you had a good break from LNP. Thank God, I'm happy to see you in full vigour that you are not loosing your patience with this poor chap with obsession. I managed to read through this thread including the last one by you. Once again as usual Good work man. I'm sure Kula must be laughing.
shan |
shan
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2 Nov 2006 15:19:47 GMT Report for Abuse
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To Whom It May Concern:
1# The ethnic problem in SL started well before BC. There wasn't any single reason for Sinhalease kings and thugs to leave Tamils in the N&E since Chola and Indian Tamil kings were weak. There was ample time in between Chola's demise and Europeans arrival. UN and SLMM were non existence. If Trinco Tamils can be chased out under the watch of SLMM and UN now what stopped the Sinhalese to chase the Tamils then.
It has been provided again and again in these discussions and by several known historians that SL had been a multiethnic society There is some debate among historians as to whether settlement by Indo-Aryan speakers preceded settlement by Dravidian-speaking Tamils, but there is no dispute over the fact that Sri Lanka, from its earliest recorded history, was a multiethnic society. Evidence suggests that during the early centuries of Sri Lankan history there was considerable harmony between the Sinhalese and Tamils?
Source:
Informative general histories of Sri Lanka include K.M. de Silva's A History of Sri Lanka, E.F.C. Ludowyk's A Short History of Ceylon, Zeylanicus's Ceylon, S. Arasaratnam's Ceylon, and Chandra Richard de Silva's Sri Lanka: A History. Source books on medieval history are Wilhelm Geiger's translations of the Pali chronicles, the Mahavamsa and Culavamsa, and the comprehensive The Early History of Ceylon by G.C. Mendis. Highly informative for the study of modern political events and ethnic disturbances are S.J. Tambiah's Sri Lanka: Ethnic Fratricide, and the Dismantling of Democracy, A. Jeyaratnam Wilson's Politics in Sri Lanka, and Government and Politics in South Asia by Craig Baxter, Yogendra K. Malik, Charles H. Kennedy, and Robert C. Oberst
2# By 12 CAD natural separation took place and Tamils started living in N and E province and Sinhalese in the rest of the country of 7 provinces.
If any one claims the ownership of SL in contrary to above mentioned history please provide video footage of Tamils landing in Sinhala populated N&E. As a mater of fact this would be much easier and by all means very easy to prove in a professional way if you have the real evidences and close the case rather than going round and round. (Video evidences) evidences in facts and figure and dates re people in and out of N&E.
Please don't bring any hypothesis. We had enough of it. |
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