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Four Jaffna Tamil youth abducted
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nada
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8 Nov 2005 02:21:27 GMT Report for Abuse
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Dear Gaja,
referring to the Vairavar story, it brings nostalgic memories. Vairavar is a household name in Jaffna and most houses had a shrine for vairavar in some corner of the compound and the lamp is lit on Fridays. Viaravar is supposed to protect the house and the people.
Of course there is plenty of superstitious stories centred round Viravar similar to many other things. When dogs bark at night they say Viravar is on his walk, especially on a Friday. Even when some intruder creeping around they will think it is Vairavar.
We had an old lady in the neighbourhood who used to say that 'oh antha sani valavukkala pohuthu', of course with plenty of affection. One day she even saw the Viravar going in a pair of shorts according to her. I told her why not, he too has to get modernised. I am sure she was either hallucinating or really saw some bloke trespassing her compound in the night.
Of course one night she was burgled and all the gold jewelry gone. I joked at others that too is the work of Vairavar.
The dog biting the woman who did not light the lamp in one such faith. Of course there are so many who get bitten by dogs in the villages even otherwise. It is a common practice for people to carry a stick when they trek through the village to ward off the stray dogs but not Viravar. After all Vairavar is not that cruel.
One more interesting thing, on other days the Vairavar shrine is open, usually no gate, it is mostly a slab above, and often it becomes the resting place for the domestic dog. That further enhances the belief of the villagers (not necessarily)that the dog being Vairavar's 'vahanam' sleeps there. You know in Jaffna dogs are not permitted into the house in most instances.
But I have also come across snakes inside those shrines and people try to interpret 'nagapooshani ammal' or even 'naga thosham'.
With urbanisation Viravar and others are fast disappearing. There is a famous song in school 'Vairavar saevai engalukku thevai'.
To me most of these things are of social interest than anything magical or miraculous |
Gaja
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8 Nov 2005 02:24:08 GMT Report for Abuse
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Thank you Mucha-linda for responding. I am happy to hear that you have not abandoned Buddhism. I myself was distracted by the secular world in an enviroment where logic and intellectual analyses were neglected. This was at a University. I was 'expecting' results as per science and logic and hence my pain. God showed Himself through Sai form to help me have faith in Truth - through people who shared my Truth. I want others to know so if they get to the stage I did, they would know what to do. This is why I share my Truth.
love
gaja |
Gaja
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8 Nov 2005 03:13:12 GMT Report for Abuse
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Thank you Nada for that 'fond' sharing.
Reading your response, I am reminded of an incident in Vanni when I was helping the Tigers structure their Health system through a UNDP project.
Kalai Mahal ( a Penn Puli) and I were going to get Kalai Mahal's ID card from the Grama Sevahar in Palai. Without that Kalai Mahal could not have come with our group to the East. I was very keen for her to come. Hence when she went to on the motor bike to pick up the ID, I went with her. The Tyre punctured half way through on the abandoned road. Kalai Mahal pushed the bike and would not let me help. Eventually another guy who passed that way brought a mechanic who fixed it temporarily. When we got close to the Grama Sevahar's home, it punctured again. I sat in the shade and talked to the local ladies about their war experiences, whilst Kalai Mahal went about her ID card. We also found a local mechanic who fixed it but warned us that it would not stand the heat.
I said to Kalai Mahal, to pray and that everything will be alright. On the way back, Kalai Mahal stopped and to my surprise I saw a small Vairavar shrine. Kalai Mahal put some money in the till and prayed. I was happy to note that she overrode her 'Tiger' culture to pray as a last resort. The tyre did not puncture despite the high heat.
Later when I left Vanni at the end of my assignment, Kalai Mahal took me to all the temples and churches even though she did not come in (she was in uniform). I said to her that if ever she needed help in admin and resource management - to think what I would do and that she will have the answer intuitively.
Some of the stories are based on illusion. It is not different to what the priests tell us. Some part of their work needs to be expressed in material terms. But if they are driven by material benefits, they tend to 'imagine' without facts as their base. This must not be mixed with those who do experience the Truth - as miracles.
Those who are not educated in the outside world, are entitled to believe that what they see is True and that it is God's work. It's when they abuse their positions for material gains that facts become illusions rather than philosophy.
For example, the Police who arrested me have described my Nationality as 'Sri Lankan'. Based on what the guy saw or heard from the University of NSW, that is a fact for him. But based on what I know about myself, I am an Australian and that is a fact too. But to someone who does not have access to my facts but believes in my genuineness, my description that I am an Australian is a philosophy. To those who do not know me personally and believe that most migrants from SL are Sri Lankans and not Australians, my claim would seem illusionary. Likewise the materialisation of Holy kungkumum.
love
gaja |
magha
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8 Nov 2005 05:17:18 GMT Report for Abuse
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Mucha,
Thanks for your reply , though you did not answer my question ?What percentage of truth you would accept to call the person who apparently fathered you as your biological father and is it an absolute truth or partial truth?
Instead you twisted it a little bit and changed my question as follows; Unfortunately, the question you asked me (about how sure I am about the person who fathered me to be my biological father) and other things you mentioned (including Apples Falling onto ground and Mothers giving birth to babies) clearly show your level of understanding about what Science is all about . If you cannot get this correct, any efforts to understand Kovoor could become fruitless.
Well Mucha , you bring a premise of quantum theories and apparently a ? lack of Kovoors understanding of Quantum Physics? to discredit him stating that scientific model he used to challenge Sai Baba was primordial in the context that quantum theory now shows that any thing can be created from nowhere. Hence Kovoor?s arguments has no merit against Sai Bab?s deceptive miracles.
Well my friend you have failed to understand the following;
1) Physics and Mathematics are branches of Science and not the entire Science which is natural and physical Science.
2) Quantum physics is a theory therefore it is conjectural.
3) The matter can be created from nowhere is a hypothesis in quantum theory and it has not been proven and furthermore in order to create matter from nowhere a device need to be created and human individual can not perform such creations without the help of a device if at all .
4) Basic principles of science is observation and experimentation and rational conclusions arrived thus.
5) Scientific achievement the mankind achieved so far is not through exploiting the quantum theory but through the systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
6) You accept Sai Baba as a liar in the context that his miracles are not through a supernatural phenomena but just trickery, but fail to understand that one needs only basic principles of science of observation necessary to identify if what he is performing is illusory or genuine?
7) In the event that accepted scientific observation failed to determine the nature of the so called Miracles performed by Sai Baba, then one has to consider the supernatural powers of Sai Baba which then reflects either he being truly ,a Godman ,a saint , a divine power or his ingenuity of creating a device which modern day Scientists failed to accomplish.
8) Whilst you condemn Kovoor?s approach you unfortunately fail to provide a better model to investigate so called Miracles of Sai Baba, which again a reflection that you have become rather a Theoretician and you are incompetent to apply science in to practice. Furthermore it is probably a reflection of your own ambiguity to accept the logic hiding behind the conjectures of quantum theory and the hypothesis derived from it. Since we did have discussions about other topics it is now becoming more evident that you evade logical interpretation to safe guard your hypocrisy whether it is politics or science.
Edited By - magha - 9 Nov 2005 05:33:23 GMT |
nada
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8 Nov 2005 08:03:58 GMT Report for Abuse
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Dear Magha,
I am in agreement with your views. But long theories make people bored and make them to lose concentration. Playing around with words and terminologies alone do not answer the issue. But it is a good medium to take cover evading specific answers.
In science answers are often brief and precise, to the point. You being a medical man knows how scientific articles are written. Only a few read even the full article, majority goes to the abstract or the summary.
Many postings especially involving scientific or logical analysis are too lengthy and one question is answered by another question without a definite answer to the original question. Playing around with words does not solve the issue.
'An expert is a person who takes more words than necessary to say more than what he/she knows.
There is abundant information circulating in this forum but at times are not focusing on specific answers. Of course for some issues there are no answers. Then comes the sensitive religious and cultural issues which need tact to answer.
Hope all will take your point. I am communicating with you after a long period of ceasefire
Nada |
Mucha-linda
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8 Nov 2005 23:59:09 GMT Report for Abuse
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MAGHA:
Thank you for your response. You have asked me the same question (Quote: What percentage of truth you would accept to call the person who apparently fathered you as your biological father and is it an absolute truth or partial truth? ), seemingly, without realizing the explanation I gave invalidates your question. Simply, you are asking me a question which does not make any sense to me in this context.
Not only that, your question also indicates that you are someone believing for Partial Truths to become Absolute Truths after they met certain percentage of evidences. Mister, the point you are missing here is Partial Truths would never become Absolute even they prove to be correct with 100% of evidences. You may get a better understanding about what is meant by Absolute Truth in Science by comparing it against PERCEIVED TRUTH.
However, I opt to give you an arbitrary answer to figure out where you are going to take me from there. So..YES, I CONSIDER THE PERSON WHO FATHERED ME TO BE MY BIOLOGICAL FATHER WITH 99.99% OF DNA EVIDENCE. And this is a Perceived Truth to me. You are invited to continue from there.
(Contd.)
-Muchalinda
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Mucha-linda
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9 Nov 2005 00:07:47 GMT Report for Abuse
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MAGHA Again:
You have also said that Q Mechanics is conjectural. Yes, it in deed is. But the problem is everything in Science is conjectural, let it be Physics or Medicine. What all the areas of Science are doing is to devise (decide) the best possible model that explains the most of the observations (if not all) with less inconsistencies. Not only Q Mechanics, but Newton's Gravity as well as Einstein's Curved Spacetime are also conjectural.
Not only that, when we say Heart circulates the blood, it again is conjectural. William Harvey observed how Blood is pumped out of the valves of the heart and decided it as the organ responsible for the circulation of blood in the human body. Scientists since his time have not made any observations in contrary to that and therefore for the time being we believe that we have observed everything and thus consider 'Heart Circulates Blood in Human Body' as an Absolute Truth. But, with the advancement of Science, we do not know what new observations would emerge tomorrow. For example, a new observation that could make tomorrow would identify a hitherto unseen magnetic field around our bodies as responsible for making Heart Tissues to undergo that Convulsive action to circulate blood in our bodies. If such an observation is made, from tomorrow onwards, we would identify that Magnetic Field as the 'organ' responsible for the blood circulation and it is also very possible for medical practitioners of tomorrow to practice Magnetic Therapies on patients instead of planting pace makers (And interestingly, even after such a finding, pace makers would still be used to rectify any irregularities of Heart, though heart being the central organ of blood circulation has been proved wrong. This would be very similar for NASA Scientists to vest on Newtonian Gravity in their first Manned Mission to the Moon, though existence of such a gravity was proven wrong by Einstein). This should make it clear to you that not only Q Mechanics, but everything in Science is Conjectural, because we do not simply know whether we have observed everything that could affect our decisions in Science.
(Contd.)
-Muchalinda
PS: I assume you know that, before William Harvey, people thought Liver as the organ that circulates blood in our bodies. Correct me if I am wrong.
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Edited By - Mucha-linda - 9 Nov 2005 00:27:05 GMT |
Mucha-linda
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9 Nov 2005 00:10:53 GMT Report for Abuse
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MAGHA Again:
I would not be able to respond to each and every point you listed since this would then be very lengthy, but would prefer to comment on the last thing you mentioned below.
Quote: Since we did have discussions about other topics it is now becoming more evident that you evade logical interpretation to safe guard your hypocrisy whether it is politics or science .
I know, old wounds could still hurt, if they have not been properly treated. But the other side of the story is you are keep failing to think beyond what your masters (Westerners) want you to think. If it is politics, you are ready even to change our constitution simply because EU countries want us to do that without querying what they have in their constitutions. If it is about 'Creating Wrist Watches' you are ready seek support from Newtonian Physics without even knowing such theories have already been abandoned by Scientists themselves.
MAGHA, the most important advice you are missing in all these discussions is, if you admire the western model of development and if you wish Sri Lanka to achieve that, what you should do is not to follow their deeds, but to follow their way of thinking. In 'Sudda Sinhala', what you should do is not to worship 'Sudda', but to think like 'Sudda'.
-Muchalinda
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Edited By - Mucha-linda - 9 Nov 2005 00:22:31 GMT |
magha
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9 Nov 2005 06:02:25 GMT Report for Abuse
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Dear Nada,
As you said I too tend to read the abstracts mostly in scientific papers relying on the prestige of the Journal they are published. Since in this forum we discuss matters out side our fields things can become some times a jargon of words and terminology and reiteration. Anyway thanks for pointing out the facts. I have been quietly following up your interpretations enjoying the logic behind. |
magha
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9 Nov 2005 07:18:04 GMT Report for Abuse
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Mucha,
It looks like that you are running out of patience with me and now becoming more irritable. To make it even worse let me add that you selected the easiest point to answer on my last post. I am not going to debate with you on the Heart , the circulation , intrinsic pacemakers of the heart and etc since the points you brought out is not in line with the modern concepts of medical science and not worth the time spent.
Getting back to my original question, I would like to point out that in the modern day when a woman conceives, there is one truth about the baby she is going to give birth to. The truth is either the woman knows100 % who the father of the child is or she does not know. The fact whether she knows or does not know is also the truth.
If a woman?s conscience is clear ,and has no ulterior motive, who she says is the father of the child is 100% truth, and is there any thing absolute than that?
This is the case with many many millions of mothers including yours and me. Now the question of DNA analysis proving as per you 99.99% but not 100% is not rejection of the truth because the .01% is not lack of evidence.
The reason is DNA is a Genotypic analysis , but we have to take in to account the Phenotypic characteristics of a child and the father as well as the circumstances which led to the conception .Therefore the .01% or more could be the percentage of logic and reasoning what would substantiate the 100% truth of woman?s conscience of identifying a child as hers and the father of the child. Quantum theory has nothing to do with that.
Finally it was Sai Baba?s conscience with guilt evaded the challenges of Kovoor and not Kovoor?s methodology or his lack of knowledge in the field of Quantum physics.
Edited By - magha - 9 Nov 2005 07:22:01 GMT |
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