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Four Jaffna Tamil youth abducted
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Mucha-linda
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7 Nov 2005 05:13:29 GMT Report for Abuse
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Dear GAJA:
I personally believe Sai Baba is liar because of certain reasons which I would not like to discuss in a Public Forum. I know the next questuion you are going to ask me is- then why on earth I declared him as a LIAR in a Public Forum. Your logic is correct, and your questioning is valid.
But GAJA, my contribution here (as I clearly mentioned in one of the previus posts) is not to figureout the authenticity of acts done by Sai Baba, but to show others that criticising one model based on another is hopeless. However, at one stage I realised Questioing Kovoor without commenting on Sai Baba is something impossible to do. So, I had no option but to answer questions asked by others about my personal belief about Sai Baba, though they had nothing to do with my argument. You can go back and have a look some critical questions asked by NOEL which had left no room for me to evade without answering.
GAJA, Can you understand the situation I am in, even after claiming my personal belief about Sai Baba as a liar, they still believe I am helping what Sai Baba does. Therefore GAJA, I had no option, but to reveal some of my personal beliefs which I would not like to further discuss here. For this reason, I took extra precaution to include it as my personal belief everytime I mentioned Sai Baba a liar (where as when I said Matter can be created according to Q Mechanics, I never presented it as a personal belief, becuase I was ready to discuss that publicly).
Because of the above reasons, I prefer not to answer your question and would like to emphasise again that this is not my major concern.
-Muchalinda
PS: BTW, I am very keen to understand what you think about Adolf Hitler. Do you believe what Hitler did is correct?
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Edited By - Mucha-linda - 7 Nov 2005 05:16:06 GMT |
Gaja
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7 Nov 2005 06:26:44 GMT Report for Abuse
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Dear Mucha-linda,
Thank you for the response.
I do respect that you have your personal beliefs. But we were discussing science and blind faith. If you are not able to scientifically explain your disbelief in Sai Baba, then you are automatically taking 'sides' and are out of the scientific boundaries.
Even today, when I was trying to get something for a fellow Sai devotee seeking 'business' advice from me, I picked up the card of her father in law instead of the cards I was looking for. Both of us concluded that it was a message from Sai to seek her father in law's blessings. There is no obvious logic to it. Since we were both believers, we did not need any.
I do not agree with you that you 'had' to bring your Sai opinion into the discussion. You chose to, because you found that to be easier. They say in courts that the clock stops at the point of complaint. That particular matter is the whole world and we need to consciously override all other information and beliefs we have as individuals. This is difficult but is necessary for a successful lawyer and a scientist. The Judge has the discretionary powers to rule beyond these logical / scientific arguments based on their intuitive wisdom. Hence their judicial immunity. Most professionals enjoy this immunity through their respective professional bodies. Unless you were the judge in this forum, you did not have that discretionary power. If you could not prove your case within those logical bounaries - then that is your limitation. To override the limits was an act in breach of the doctrine of separation of powers. Only a Hindu community elder has this authority and not you. If you believed that about Sai Baba and did not wish to share it with the public - the any experience based on which you call Sai a liar, must be kept confidential and not stated publicly. THAT us respect for other people's work and discoveries.
As for my opinion about Hitler - he was very smart. But he also wanted to limit nature to his logic and intellect. Hence his downfall. I see many Hitlers in today's scientists.
love
gaja
Edited By - Gaja - 7 Nov 2005 06:37:59 GMT |
Gaja
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7 Nov 2005 06:52:43 GMT Report for Abuse
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Thank you Noel for responding.
During the period the kungkumum materialised, only my husband and my son were living with me. They are both non-believers, not active but passive. In fact all my children are of this group. Now, my White Australian daughter in law is a believer of supernatural powers. Yesterday, I was surprised to hear my son talk about 'Vasthu' - a sasthra to arrange furniture. But back in 1998, he actually argued that I was giving credit to Sai Baba, for what I was doing. He saw the kungkumum but did not seek to think further about it. My husband does believe in Khali - their Family Goddess. But he chose to not think about a logical explanation for the miracle. Neither felt the need that I felt and hence were largely indifferent. Hence they had no motive to influence me.
As for the story you narrated, I heard similar story during my recent visit to Northern SL - at our family temple of Vairavar & Khali in Thunaivi. The folks said that one of the ladies had gone into a trance and had said that there will be bloodshed and that the people needed to follow the lawful paths. They said that the lady did not have any injuries but showed blood from behind her head. The lady herself said she did not know anything that happened during the trance.
I believe that as long as they do not force their views on others - as your group did - they are entitled to their beliefs. It's like in any other field. Some people do force and that leads to evil.
love
gaja |
nada
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7 Nov 2005 07:58:46 GMT Report for Abuse
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Dear gaja,
Hope you had a peaceful weekend.
The kumkum episode, according to you is true, no one denies that. But how it really came is another issue. Under extreme faith, with prior knowledge of such happenings, one can do such an act without being conscious of it. It is not for any corrupt reason or to hoodwink (in your case) but one of the manifestations of extreme faith.
It does no harm, as long as it does not tread into extremes. Your findings are helpful to you and it is of no harm to any one.
Regarding the woman who bled from the back of her head without a wound, what was the final results?
Unfortunately I have seated in front of pictures for hours waiting for holly ash and theetham to fall in many instances but it never happened. One case where the family claimed that the bulbs had become 'automatic' after putting them around the picture of Baba. I could not resist my temptation and to their displeasure removed one of the bulbs and examined it to see they were in fact automatic bulbs.
In another case a nicely polished arm of a chair had a clear palm print and the owners claimed that it was Baba's. I did not have Baba's palm print to compare. All these people are good respectable people but their claims are the manifestation of extreme faith.
There is a claim that certain people only could see ghosts and other such 'items'. There are only certain people who could smell certain odour or see certain colours but nothing to prove about seeing ghosts.
Gaja, do you believe in ghosts? Many used to ask me whether there are ghosts and spirits. Of course one thing is certain; the ghosts are absolutely harmless if at all, but the most dangerous ones are the two legged living ghosts, the human beings.
Vast majority of these 'happenings' are hearsay and not being investigated in a logical or scientific way. There are many who are scared to even question such things owing to inbuilt fear of the unknown. This is something we are trained to hear from childhood. 'Child don't go out in the night, ghost will catch you'. These fears goes into the subconscious mind and lingers on, only a small minority will be able to get out of it through logic.
I do not dispute your faith and visions but to experience such happenings one has to prime his/her mind to a great extent. Whether it is good or bad depends on the way such visions are utilised.
This is not to dispute your faith, and no dispute about it. My only concern is that on many occasions gulibles are exploited by these 'supernatural and paranormal' happenings
Regards Nada |
Mucha-linda
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7 Nov 2005 23:01:48 GMT Report for Abuse
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NOEL_WILLIAM:
What you are asking is not very clear to me. As far as I know, almost all the arguments, challenges, revelation etc of Kovoor were based 100% on Science (especially Physics and Psycology). He extensively referenced Science to prove his case. As far as I know, he never denounced any miracles, ghosts etc based on any other knowledge apart from Science. In essence, you may even take all of his work as a reference to this.
As said previously, I have not studied Kovorr a lot, apart from reading Sinhala Translations of few of his books (Deviyo Saha Buthayo, Maa Kala Gaveshana etc) and few other articles of him occasionally published on newspapers/ net. He has referenced Science extensively in all these publications.
In fact, there was an interview with the Chairperson of Buddhiwadi Foundation (Foundation of Rationalists ?) which was originally established by Kovoor himself. In that Interview (possibly in Lakbima news paper), he has clealy stated that their excercise is based 100% on Science, but on nothing else.
You may also find to what extent Kovoor sought support from Science in the links listed at the bottom of the web page http://www.uni-giessen.de/
gk1415/kovoor.htm.
Further the statement of him you quoted itself is a very good reference to prove his inclination towards Science.
I hope, I answered your querry.
-Muchalinda
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Edited By - Mucha-linda - 7 Nov 2005 23:05:59 GMT |
Mucha-linda
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8 Nov 2005 00:06:38 GMT Report for Abuse
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Dear GAJA:
What all I can say to you again is the same I said earlier. I personally believe Sai Baba is a Liar and I am not ready to prove my case since it is something personal to me and most importantly, since it has nothing to do with my intention of participation here.
GAJA, please understand that the last thing I want to do with you is to argue the authenticity of the wrist watches created by Sai Baba OR that of the Kokum appeared on Sai Baba's photographs. This is not my intention. As I have clearly established earlier, all what I want to do is to show that all these are just model devised by us depending on what we have observed (and perceived), and thus nothing can be treated as an Absolute Truth.
In addition to the above, if by any chance you convinced me that these acts of Sai Baba are authentic (or Scientific), still it will not make any difference to me since I am not ready to follow someone because of such acts. If I am ever going to follow Sai Baba, it would only happen based on his philosophy. But the issue here again is what he is preaching is nothing new to me, but just a re-iteration of what lord Buddha, Jesus Christ etc preached. So I would rather follow them, not Sai Baba.
Sir Isaac Newton theorized the nature of Light in 17th Century. Almost 4 Centuries later at the dawn of 20th Century, I was taught Sir Isaac Newton's findings by a tution master called 'Sir' Mohan Lal Grero. I still respect Grero 'Sir' for teaching me those. But if I want follow anyone (to study nature of Light) I would rather follow Sir Newton, not 'Sir' Grero. You are invited to see the analogy here.
-Muchalinda
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Edited By - Mucha-linda - 8 Nov 2005 00:08:15 GMT |
Gaja
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8 Nov 2005 01:50:21 GMT Report for Abuse
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Thank you Nada for responding. I am happy that you agree that the kungkumum I saw is a fact. To those who believe in me but did not witness it, it becomes philosophy. Scientists might one day prove it through Observation and elimination of all other possibilities. Do you know that the Earth is global? Is that a fact for you? No, it is a philosophy because you believe in those scientists and more importantly you have invested in the materialism that such beliefs bring you. Just as much as doctors and other scietists fool people, religious followers also fool people for material benefits. In this instance it is more for status and less for money. Until you know that I seek material benefits by sharing my facts with others, it would be wrong to include me in that group. As for me placing it in my sleep or in a trance - I have not done that on any other occasion.
About the lady with the blood on her head - no one ventured further because they did not see any material benefits for themselves by seeking scientific explanations. Most of them, if not all, have not gone through high school education. Hence their mere faith. Another lady said that her mother-in-law had lit the camphour at the Khali shrine and at the Murugan shrine but not at the Vairavar shrine. The lady said that even as her mother in law walked back home, a dog bit her on the leg. The lady concluded that it was Vairavar. My own family are very respectful of our Vairavar and Khali. I do not fear Vairavar. I just appreciate Vairavar and Khali. The way I saw Their power was by appreciating the opportunity I got this time to fulfil something I wanted to do when I first went overseas. Back then I wanted to build a community center to educate the disenfranchised (meaning lower caste) kids in that area. During my father's time they were not allowed to draw water from our temple well. I had arguments about it from my father who eventually said 'what can I do? I have been brought up like that by my autocratic family'
Since I took over the management of the temple, I have actively promoted the drawing of water from the well by the people living in that area. This time I wanted to deepen the well - so the supply would be greater. That was when the people approached me and asked whether we would give land for lane access. I agreed happily. Then later, on finding that they were looking for land for a community building funded by NECORD, I offered 2 lachams and the rest of the family went along with my wishes. I melt, appreciating how Vairavar & Khali fulfilled my genuine wishes to serve the needy. During this visit, three of those children were inside the altar with me, helping me clean the floor of the altar. They are now part of my family.
As for ghosts - I believe in spirit - as in soul. Those who give it form - see ghosts. I do not. I believe in my great grandfather about whom my mother has told me so much. I believe therefore that his spirit is with me - especially when I am doing big business. No, I have never seen him as a ghost or even in my dreams. Nor did kungkumum materialise on my picture of him.
love
gaja
Edited By - Gaja - 8 Nov 2005 01:59:22 GMT |
Gaja
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8 Nov 2005 02:04:57 GMT Report for Abuse
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Thank you Mucha-linda for responding.
If you are not ready to reveal the 'source' (subjective or objective) of your opinion then I cannot compare the work you have done against my work to know the Truth about Sai. Hence in that instance we have to remain in two different worlds - you opposing Sai Baba and me confirming Sai Baba as a genuine leader.
I do not seek to influence anyone to follow Sai Baba. In fact, to do so would be against His philosophy that we must remain within our birth religions. If ever you thought that I did, it flows from your own search and not my faith.
You say 'If I am ever going to follow Sai Baba, it would only happen based on his philosophy.'
I appreciate that. But why would you need to follow Him? What about your own religion? Why have you abandoned that faith and the automatic wisdom that comes with that faith?
You say you would follow 'Sir Newton, not 'Sir' Grero' for scientific philosophy. If you believe that what Sir Grero taught you was true within those confines, then for that part, Sir Grero becomes part of Sir Newton. Likewise Sai Baba and God to me. But once it gets to the soul level, we do not need to give it distinct form and therefore the distinction disappears. In other words Sir Grero and Sir Newton are one.
When I went to Nallur and Kathirgamam, I prayed to God through the Form of Lord Muruga. When I am at my home, I pray to Sai. There is no conflict because I do not remember their physical forms but rather how they make me feel. In general terms, if you love one person, you will love all those who identify with you. The form you give that love is different as per the material world.
Likewise Truth.
love
gaja
Edited By - Gaja - 8 Nov 2005 02:18:45 GMT |
Mucha-linda
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8 Nov 2005 02:18:07 GMT Report for Abuse
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GAJA:
I am a Buddhist and I have not abandoned Buddhism at all. I may not be practising it, but it has not stopped me analysing or studying it. But I hope, I will one day.
Take Care.
-Muchalinda
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nada
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8 Nov 2005 02:19:32 GMT Report for Abuse
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Dear Gaja,
referring to the Vairavar story, it brings nostalgic memories. Vairavar is a household name in Jaffna and most houses had a shrine for vairavar in some corner of the compound and the lamp is lit on Fridays. Viaravar is supposed to protect the house and the people.
Of course there is plenty of superstitious stories centred round Viravar similar to many other things. When dogs bark at night they say Viravar is on his walk, especially on a Friday. Even when some intruder creeping around they will think it is Vairavar.
We had an old lady in the neighbourhood who used to say that 'oh antha sani valavukkala pohuthu', of course with plenty of affection. One day she even saw the Viravar going in a pair of shorts according to her. I told her why not, he too has to get modernised. I am sure she was either hallucinating or really saw some bloke trespassing her compound in the night.
Of course one night she was burgled and all the gold jewelry gone. I joked at others that too is the work of Vairavar.
The dog biting the woman who did not light the lamp in one such faith. Of course there are so many who get bitten by dogs in the villages even otherwise. It is a common practice for people to carry a stick when they trek through the village to ward off the stray dogs but not Viravar. After all Vairavar is not that cruel.
One more interesting thing, on other days the Vairavar shrine is open, usually no gate, it is mostly a slab above, and often it becomes the resting place for the domestic dog. That further enhances the belief of the villagers (not necessarily)that the dog being Vairavar's 'vahanam' sleeps there. You know in Jaffna dogs are not permitted into the house in most instances.
But I have also come across snakes inside those shrines and people try to interpret 'nagapooshani ammal' or even 'naga thosham'.
With urbanisation Viravar and others are fast disappearing. There is a famous song in school 'Vairavar saevai engalukku thevai'.
To me most of these things are of social interest than anything magical or miraculous |
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